What companies DON'T use MIM parts in their pistols?

[BigJimP]

Other than the high end 1911 mfg's .... I think all of the mfg's use some MIM parts in their guns ....even companies like Sig Sauer / who I think makes some very strong guns. But I suspect the triggers in some of the Sig models could be MIM parts ( maybe Hammers and Sears - but I hope not ).

The problem is / few if any of us have every model of gun made by these companies - and have never taken most, let alone all, of their models fully apart.

I have recently stripped my 3 Sig 226's all down to bare frames / and both of my Sig 239's as well ...and the only parts on either gun that could be MIM, in my opinion, were the Triggers, Hammers or the Sears.....and I'm pretty confident the Hammers and Sears in my guns were not MIM ...but the Triggers might have been ( not sure ), I'll have to go back and look next time I take one of them down.

I know none of my Wilson 1911's have MIM parts in them ...but that's the only one I know for sure.

 

[DBAR]

If your Sig were made in the last 5 or 6 years, they have MIM. Triggers, hammers, sears, and now some extractors are MIM in Sigs. I think there maybe some other parts that are MIM in Sigs. I know the mag release on some of the new ones are, specifically the "checkered" mag release. The take down levers are now MIM, and I'm sure I'm missing something else.

Most manufacturers are going to MIM to keep their prices the same, without loosing their profit margin. I can't really blame them, it's either that, or make their guns so expensive that no one will buy them????

DBAR

 

[Shane Tuttle]

I know for an absolute FACT that Les Bear has NO MIM parts.

Dan Wesson may be in this crowd as well. They went to forged frames (older models were cast) and IIRC many parts are from Ed Brown. Brown's parts are forged.

BTW, current Colt 1911s use three MIM parts, which could be replaced with Wilson Combat parts for less than $100 - or you could pay $1,000-$2,000 more to buy a pistol with the Wilson name on the side.

Which three are they? I thought some Colt models are all forged...

I read recently of a Les Baer owner's bar stock machined sear breaking and locking up the trigger group in a brand new pistol.

As any mechanical tool can break, the number of occurences of a forged part breaking compared to MIM would be lopsided to say the least. MIM may have improved, but it will never equal in quality as a forged part.

 

[AZAK]

Which three are they? I thought some Colt models are all forged...

I am curious also.

The last time that I spoke with Colt on this very issue, a bit over a year ago now, I was told that the disconnector was the only MIM part Colt was using in their 1911s.

 

[FEG]

Sort of off-topic, but somewhat relevant:

A few years ago, my father and I were discussing investment casting. His take was that common sense told him that investment casting probably encouraged a manufacturer to reject a "borderline" frame, while "borderline" forged frames are probably passed too often.

 

[gc70]

Originally Posted by gc70
BTW, current Colt 1911s use three MIM parts, which could be replaced with Wilson Combat parts for less than $100 - or you could pay $1,000-$2,000 more to buy a pistol with the Wilson name on the side.

Originally Posted by Tuttle8
Which three are they? I thought some Colt models are all forged...

My most recent Colt's only MIM parts are a sear, disconnector, and magazine release. Colt flirted with more MIM parts (i.e. extractor) in the 1990s, but cut back and may be using even fewer MIM parts today.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Didn't know that. Even if they're using MIM, that's very few parts. In that regard, I find it difficult to believe Colts are overpriced for what they offer...

 

[BigJimP]

Overall -- I prefer to have a gun with no MIM parts in it ....but at the same time, if they are made properly, MIM isn't by default an inferior part.

The problem is, a lot of mfg's go to MIM parts to only save money / not improve quality ....and that's why they get such a bad rap ....

 

[Elvishead]

guns breaking on guns and it concerns me.

What?!

 

[Elvishead]

I'd just like to share some of my gun related pet peeves with everyone:

1. When someone pronounces carbine like "car-byne". This really gets to me, I have no idea why.

2. When your watching a video of someone shooting, and the shooter leans back. What's with that?

3. snip[ I've (more than once) gotten swiped by muzzles of loaded guns and ending up leaving to stay on the safe side.

4. People who ask "What's the strongest gun?"

5. When someone you know thinks your going to shoot people just because you own guns.

6. People who say "Deagle" instead of Desert Eagle.

Anyone else have gun-related things that annoying the living daylights out of them?
__________________
"Grab a rifle. We're gonna tear this place apart!" - Gunnery Sgt. Tom Sullivan

lol

 

[jaughtman]

Hate to sound like a newbie....

but what is the differnce between "investment casting" and "mim"?

Jamie

 

[oneounceload]

but what is the differnce between "investment casting" and "mim"?

The difference between Ruger fanboys and Kimber haters.......

 

[areilly]

Using MIM isn't inherently bad. Not everything needs to be made of milled, hardened, and nitro-carburized unobtanium from the forges of mount doom to be of good quality. If the requirements of a part (hardness, wear resistance, stiffness etc) are met by using a MIM part, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. The quality of the materials and manufacturing processes are far more important - a lousy manufacturer will produce a lousy milled part.

Although HKs, being superior in all ways, use no MIM parts. 100% teutonic unobtanium hardened by the scowls and fury of German engineers.

(seriously though, now that I think of it, the hammers on HKs might be MIM part with additional milling)

 

[FEG]

what is the differnce between "investment casting" and "mim"?

Investment casting (as opposed to die or sand casting) is one of the oldest methods of forming metal. It may even be older than hammer forging, since it is well suited for bronze.

Investment casting uses a master pattern made from wax (traditionally beeswax), but for the last few centuries, patterns have also been made from wood, steel, and plastic. A mold is then made from the pattern. The mold is then used to make secondary patterns for large-scale production. These are almost always a form of wax. The secondary pattern or patterns are then used to make investments (ceramic molds) for the actual casting process.

The casting is performed by pouring molten metal into the investments. If the mold is small, or has many fine details, other means may be used, such as vacuum pressure or a centrifuge.

"Investment casting is used with almost any castable metal, however aluminium alloys, copper alloys, and steel are the most common. In industrial usage the size limits are 3 g (0.1 oz) to about 5 kg (11 lb). The cross-sectional limits are 0.6 mm (0.024 in) to 75 mm (3.0 in). Typical tolerances are 0.1 mm for the first 25 mm (0.005 in for the first inch) and 0.02 mm for the each additional centimeter (0.002 in for each additional inch). A standard surface finish is 1.3–4 microns (50–125 μin) RMS."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_casting

In other words, it can be used for very large parts, but it is not suitable for very small parts.

Metal injection molding (MIM) is typically used for smaller mass-produced parts that are not suitable for traditional casting methods. The process is derived from the injection molding used to manufacture plastic parts on a large scale.

"The products of metal injection molding are up to 98% as dense as wrought metal and used in a broad range of applications (including medical, dental, firearms, aerospace, and automotive.) Tolerances as small as +/-.003" per linear inch can usually be held without secondary processes. The difficulty of fabrication through other means may make it inefficient or even impossible to manufacture otherwise. Increasing complexity for traditional manufacturing methods typically does not increase cost in a metal injection molding operation due to the wide range of features possible through injection molding (internal and external threads, miniaturization, branding)."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding

 

[FEG]

guns breaking on guns and it concerns me.

There are few things more tragic than "gun on gun" crime.

 

[James K]

I watched the early MIM controversy and concluded that it was almost always fueled by the S&W haters. Those folks simply have a passionate, nearly insane, hatred of S&W and everything they make or do. When they began to use MIM, it was just another excuse to beat up on the company. S&W guns were blowing up by the thousands, streets were littered with the bodies of people killed either by S&W guns or because their S&W guns failed, etc., etc.

MIM is not a substitute for quality manufacturing; it IS quality manufacturing. I doubt that the people who insist they want only products made by 19th century methods would pay, say, $4000 for a revolver equivalent to the the 642, and that is what a 642 would cost if made the same way and by the methods as used in 1900.

Jim

 

[w_houle]

but what is the differnce between "investment casting" and "mim"?
The difference between Ruger fanboys and Kimber haters.......

Don't forget AR-15s being made from investment cast aluminum as well.
I don't have one, and it's mention might not be well received, but the Cobra Shadow has a MIM barrel. Now the only thing left is to advance MIM to the point where it will take chamber pressure, so to be able to make the cylinder out of MIM as well. Then it will be a matter of making MIM springs. With further refinement it will be possible to build pistols out of nothing but MIM and polymer. The only thing left would be toturn it into a 3D printing operation
Turn on your printer, download your pattern, print and shoot in as little as an hour

 

[gearchecker]

As a S&W revolver fan I can quite honestly tell you what the biggest complaint about MIM parts is.
Case Hardened parts each had an individual appearance and you can quickly tell when a trigger and a hammer is case hardened. Teh only purpose for case hardeneing was to amke the parts last longer from the pressures of firing teh gun or pistol.
MIM parts are as hard, if not harder than the case hardened parts. The brittleness is no longer an issue either, since the MIM parts haven't been heat treated to such a high temperature to acheive the finished parts.

MIM parts no longer have the "Personality" of the Case Hardened parts.
They look even and run of the mill. Sure it was a way to reduce costs, but more importantly it created a better made part overall, and that was the real reason they switched. Better, more consistant quality, and at a lower cost.
It's Win, Win for everybody.

Personally I don't care how the parts are made, as long as they hold up to my usage.

 

[gc70]

With further refinement it will be possible to build pistols out of nothing but MIM and polymer. The only thing left would be toturn it into a 3D printing operation
Turn on your printer, download your pattern, print and shoot in as little as an hour

Too late! That is how Jay Leno makes parts for his old cars; NextEngine 3D scanner, Dimension 3D printer, and Fadal CNC machine - but the process takes a bit longer than an hour.

 

[Skans]

If I'm going to pay $3,000+ for a handgun, then I want it hand-chisled and milled out of a drop-forged chunk of Rolex grade stainless steel by umpa-lumpas.