What besides the Ruger MK series are always "cocked and locked" when loaded?
- Thread starter Doyle
- Start date
Are you looking for a .22? Or just trying to understand gun designs?
Also, speed in accessing a .22 doesn't seem as critical as that of a .45, for example. A .22 probably won't save me from a bear, for example.
What do you want the handgun to do? Coup shots? Stop a cougar? Just plink?
Are you afraid of the gun firing when dropped, or if something snags the trigger? I am not clear on your concern.
There have been many very informative posts in this thread. Many of them address some of these issues. But i am not sure which resolves your concern .
From what I gathered from this thread, you will be most comfortable with a modern Da/Sa revolver. Pick a caliber for your needs.
If you are comfortable with a glock, carry that. Heck. Get an Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit and you can have your Glock as a plinker too.
I am just a bit confused as to what you want: peace of mind with a mkII? A different gun recommendation?
Also, speed in accessing a .22 doesn't seem as critical as that of a .45, for example. A .22 probably won't save me from a bear, for example.
What do you want the handgun to do? Coup shots? Stop a cougar? Just plink?
Are you afraid of the gun firing when dropped, or if something snags the trigger? I am not clear on your concern.
There have been many very informative posts in this thread. Many of them address some of these issues. But i am not sure which resolves your concern .
From what I gathered from this thread, you will be most comfortable with a modern Da/Sa revolver. Pick a caliber for your needs.
If you are comfortable with a glock, carry that. Heck. Get an Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit and you can have your Glock as a plinker too.
I am just a bit confused as to what you want: peace of mind with a mkII? A different gun recommendation?
I agree. But quoting Glock to analyze Ruger design seems a bigger issue.
Why use Glock nomenclature to analyze the design of the Ruger MkII/MKIII?
Glock works differntly.
I could always muddy waters more with reference to the hammer (firing pin) in savage 99 hammerless rifle design. But it doesn't contribute to understanding Ruger.
617 makes a great .22 gun for any purpose. Good choice!
I like the new Ruger SP101 8-shot .22lr also. It is more accurate than I am, but that isn't saying alot.
Trying to understand gun design is a great thing to do. From the original post I wasn't clear about if that was your intention, or if you were looking for a 'woods carry' semi-auto recommendation, other than the MK series.
So: summarizing what others have so eloquently brought up:
Possible causes of semi-auto firing when unintended:
Trigger is pulled, thumb safety has slipped 'off', actuating sear, causing hammer to fall, striking firing pin.
Trigger is pulled, [no external safeties] actuating sear, causing release of striker/firing pin.
Solutions: a holster that covers trigger from brush, preferably with a thumb strap so brush won't 'lift' the handle/grip far enough while crawling for it to make the trigger snag on something.
Trigger is NOT pulled, thumb safety has slipped off, [see above]:
should NOT fire, except for rapid impact causing a 'possible' sear bounce. If that happens, it could fire: theoretically. in a worst case scenario.
Solution: keep gun in good working order, making sure there is a firm engagement and disengagement 'feel' to the thumb safety, AND get a holster that covers the thumb safety so that it can't get caught on clothing/brush to 'sweep it into the fire position'.
Thumb safety is on, but impact causes hammer to bounce off sear engagement hooks: Not likely. Hammer springs are rated usually between 14 and 32 [low end is 1911 with light reloads in a tuned 5" model, 32 is the weight in a new BHP] lbs, while sear springs are usually closer to 4-6lbs, I believe. If the sear doesn't move, it seems almost imposible for me to visualize how a hammer can bounce off the sear engagement lugs to the rear, and then move forward to fire the gun.
For the hammer to move forward, the sear HAS to move out of position. Thus, if the sear is 'frozen' in place by the thumb safety ON, the hammer should [in theory] be able to 'bounce' of the hooks and back on. Unless it BREAKS the hooks, and then the half-notch should catch it from firing.
Keep your gun in good working order and inspect it regularly.
The above does not apply to Star Model B handguns, where the hammer is blocked by the thumb safety. Nor does it apply to the Baby Eagle, Walther P38, Ruger P-89-97 series [and Beretta M9 92?], where the safety is part of the slide. See inertia firing regarding these designs.
Inertia firing: dropping the gun in such a way that the inertia of the motion causes the firing pin to move on its own, without the FCG being utilized: resulting in a gun firing while the thumb safety is on [or just no trigger pulled: I.E. A dropped gun].
Reality: not likely in a holster-unless you jump off a 5-10 foot drop onto a hard surface. And then, still not likely.
Theoretically impossible on some modern gun [with all design features operating properly] designs that incorporate a firing pin block into the slide design.
Some are trigger actuated [Modern Browning Hi Power, Colt series 80, Kimber's Swartz system, Sig Pistols I believe, Ruger P97, M&P, Glock and others].
Others are part of a slide-mounted safety system. I believe the Walther P38 design was mentioned as one that the firing pin block worked, as long as the safety was on. I don't remember if the Beretta was in that category or not. I think the Baby Eagle I owned [pre-2008 model all steel] was like that [baby eagle = IMI version of Witness, Witness = EAA version of CZ].
Basic rule: if the gun was originally designed in 1980 or newer, it probably has a firing pin block designed into it. Heck, the Browning Hi Power was converted to a firing pin block sometime before 1989. You can research when, but the original design was 1935.
Most Colt 1911s were designed in, 1911
No firing pin block in this original design: just stiff firing pin springs. Same with Star Model B, and I believe the Balistar Molina .45s.
The Ruger MK series goes back to the 1950s. The Buckmark is a modernized Challenger, which can trace its' history back to designs of the 1960s. The point? No firing pin blocks in these designs either.
Instead, they have a firing pin spring designed to hold the firing pin away from the primer until the hammer is fired. That way the gun is safe to carry.
I do not know as much about the actions on striker/firing-pin guns [Glock, M&P/XD/ etc]. I believe they all have a firing pin block built in, but am not sure. I believe it is possible that a hard knock 'might' cause a M&P [or any of the others] to have the pin 'bounce' off the sear, but then the firing pin block stops the pin from moving far enough to fire the gun. So no accidental discharge.
I do NOT know if all conversion kits ALSO have a firing pin block built in, if the original design had one. I believe the AA Glock LE models do, but I could be wrong.
Sorry: this is all I've got.
One last thing: read gun manufacturers manuals carefully. I can't remember any manual saying it was ok to jump around with a loaded gun in a holster. I may have missed something. Of course, I remember more comments in rifle manuals about unloading from the chamber before climbing fences or trees.
I think the experience of people like Monty Stratton [back in 1938: check out the movie some time] encouraged gun makers to start listing this in their manuals early. His was a holstered handgun while crossing a fence. The movie made it into a rifle. Handgun references bounce between .22 revolver, .22 auto and .32 auto. However, the accident seems to be what you indicated you were concerned about.
This is in the semi-auto category, so I won't try to include any revolver references.
And everyone, PLEASE, if I have made an error, IDENTIFY IT. I am trying to explain the systems, the possible faults, and using what I've read here, in other posts, and my experience/knowledge to flesh this out. I don't claim this is all-inclusive, or exactly accurate. Point out inaccuracies for the sake of clarity to the OP. Thanks!
I like the new Ruger SP101 8-shot .22lr also. It is more accurate than I am, but that isn't saying alot.
Trying to understand gun design is a great thing to do. From the original post I wasn't clear about if that was your intention, or if you were looking for a 'woods carry' semi-auto recommendation, other than the MK series.
So: summarizing what others have so eloquently brought up:
Possible causes of semi-auto firing when unintended:
Trigger is pulled, thumb safety has slipped 'off', actuating sear, causing hammer to fall, striking firing pin.
Trigger is pulled, [no external safeties] actuating sear, causing release of striker/firing pin.
Solutions: a holster that covers trigger from brush, preferably with a thumb strap so brush won't 'lift' the handle/grip far enough while crawling for it to make the trigger snag on something.
Trigger is NOT pulled, thumb safety has slipped off, [see above]:
should NOT fire, except for rapid impact causing a 'possible' sear bounce. If that happens, it could fire: theoretically. in a worst case scenario.
Solution: keep gun in good working order, making sure there is a firm engagement and disengagement 'feel' to the thumb safety, AND get a holster that covers the thumb safety so that it can't get caught on clothing/brush to 'sweep it into the fire position'.
Thumb safety is on, but impact causes hammer to bounce off sear engagement hooks: Not likely. Hammer springs are rated usually between 14 and 32 [low end is 1911 with light reloads in a tuned 5" model, 32 is the weight in a new BHP] lbs, while sear springs are usually closer to 4-6lbs, I believe. If the sear doesn't move, it seems almost imposible for me to visualize how a hammer can bounce off the sear engagement lugs to the rear, and then move forward to fire the gun.
For the hammer to move forward, the sear HAS to move out of position. Thus, if the sear is 'frozen' in place by the thumb safety ON, the hammer should [in theory] be able to 'bounce' of the hooks and back on. Unless it BREAKS the hooks, and then the half-notch should catch it from firing.
Keep your gun in good working order and inspect it regularly.
The above does not apply to Star Model B handguns, where the hammer is blocked by the thumb safety. Nor does it apply to the Baby Eagle, Walther P38, Ruger P-89-97 series [and Beretta M9 92?], where the safety is part of the slide. See inertia firing regarding these designs.
Inertia firing: dropping the gun in such a way that the inertia of the motion causes the firing pin to move on its own, without the FCG being utilized: resulting in a gun firing while the thumb safety is on [or just no trigger pulled: I.E. A dropped gun].
Reality: not likely in a holster-unless you jump off a 5-10 foot drop onto a hard surface. And then, still not likely.
Theoretically impossible on some modern gun [with all design features operating properly] designs that incorporate a firing pin block into the slide design.
Some are trigger actuated [Modern Browning Hi Power, Colt series 80, Kimber's Swartz system, Sig Pistols I believe, Ruger P97, M&P, Glock and others].
Others are part of a slide-mounted safety system. I believe the Walther P38 design was mentioned as one that the firing pin block worked, as long as the safety was on. I don't remember if the Beretta was in that category or not. I think the Baby Eagle I owned [pre-2008 model all steel] was like that [baby eagle = IMI version of Witness, Witness = EAA version of CZ].
Basic rule: if the gun was originally designed in 1980 or newer, it probably has a firing pin block designed into it. Heck, the Browning Hi Power was converted to a firing pin block sometime before 1989. You can research when, but the original design was 1935.
Most Colt 1911s were designed in, 1911
No firing pin block in this original design: just stiff firing pin springs. Same with Star Model B, and I believe the Balistar Molina .45s.The Ruger MK series goes back to the 1950s. The Buckmark is a modernized Challenger, which can trace its' history back to designs of the 1960s. The point? No firing pin blocks in these designs either.
Instead, they have a firing pin spring designed to hold the firing pin away from the primer until the hammer is fired. That way the gun is safe to carry.
I do not know as much about the actions on striker/firing-pin guns [Glock, M&P/XD/ etc]. I believe they all have a firing pin block built in, but am not sure. I believe it is possible that a hard knock 'might' cause a M&P [or any of the others] to have the pin 'bounce' off the sear, but then the firing pin block stops the pin from moving far enough to fire the gun. So no accidental discharge.
I do NOT know if all conversion kits ALSO have a firing pin block built in, if the original design had one. I believe the AA Glock LE models do, but I could be wrong.
Sorry: this is all I've got.
One last thing: read gun manufacturers manuals carefully. I can't remember any manual saying it was ok to jump around with a loaded gun in a holster. I may have missed something. Of course, I remember more comments in rifle manuals about unloading from the chamber before climbing fences or trees.
I think the experience of people like Monty Stratton [back in 1938: check out the movie some time] encouraged gun makers to start listing this in their manuals early. His was a holstered handgun while crossing a fence. The movie made it into a rifle. Handgun references bounce between .22 revolver, .22 auto and .32 auto. However, the accident seems to be what you indicated you were concerned about.
This is in the semi-auto category, so I won't try to include any revolver references.
And everyone, PLEASE, if I have made an error, IDENTIFY IT. I am trying to explain the systems, the possible faults, and using what I've read here, in other posts, and my experience/knowledge to flesh this out. I don't claim this is all-inclusive, or exactly accurate. Point out inaccuracies for the sake of clarity to the OP. Thanks!
When you say "in the woods" were you carrying another firearm while hunting?
Other than single shots, all hunting firearms are "cocked and locked" also known to hunters as "put on safety"
I've carried my MKII in the woods for years without any incidents. Put it on safety and in the holster.
I've carried a MKII off and on since 1989 when hunting, always in a crappy old uncle mikes nylon belt holster. I switched over to the SR22 a few years ago and now carry that because it's lighter and "accurate enough" and I now carry while fishing. I'd love to have the MKII be as small and light as the SR that way I wouldn't have that crappy hammer to deal with before shooting. I have no problems with a pistol on safety and in a holster.
Other than single shots, all hunting firearms are "cocked and locked" also known to hunters as "put on safety"
I've carried my MKII in the woods for years without any incidents. Put it on safety and in the holster.
I've carried a MKII off and on since 1989 when hunting, always in a crappy old uncle mikes nylon belt holster. I switched over to the SR22 a few years ago and now carry that because it's lighter and "accurate enough" and I now carry while fishing. I'd love to have the MKII be as small and light as the SR that way I wouldn't have that crappy hammer to deal with before shooting. I have no problems with a pistol on safety and in a holster.
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Ironically the early MkIII's could go off if they were dropped hard enough on the side with the "loaded chamber indicator". Something about the LCI was badly designed and it could impact the rim of the cartridge hard enough to set it off. It's been fixed for a long time, though.
varoadking
New member
I'm not aware of any Kahr that is equipped with a manual safety...
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None of my guns has more than one "safety" (thumb), some have none. There aren't that many guns out there that have both thumb and grip safeties, so it can't be very important to have both. My only gun that I'm not comfortable handling when loaded is my P226 with the hammer back, in which case only a relatively light SA pull on the trigger will fire it. If I was carrying it in a holster, I would either leave the hammer down on a loaded chamber (can still fire DA, but with a very heavy pull), or just leave the chamber empty.
Cheapshooter
New member
Didn't say they did. Was answering this question:
V
Not necessarily "locked" as in a safety engaged, but cocked, and ready.
Theohazard
New member
They have a few models that come with manual safties.varoadking said:
dakota1911
New member
Like a Glock. Sorry with the Glock there is no safety. Pull the twinkle trigger and bang. Glock does not make a 22 LR however so you will be getting Glock foot or Glock leg with a larger caliber.
carguychris
New member
Yes, I knew about it, I just had a moment.carguychris said:
Yeesh, it looks like they copied the (really awkward) thumb safety design from the Luger Parabellum, and I assumed that most post-1900 pistol designers knew better.Theohazard said:[Kahr has] a few models that come with manual safties. [sic]
After a little thought, I think the real answer to this is "every gun that has a manual safety".
And by manual safety, I'm talking about a safety that you apply, and it stay "on" until you take it off. I don't put grip safeties, trigger "safeties" (which I don't consider an actual safety, but rather a "trigger activation switch), or half cock notches on hammer guns as "manual safeties".
The original term for the 1911 thumb safety was the "safety lock", and this term was still the name of the part in the Army manuals I used in the 1970s. Everyone called it a thumb safety, but that's was not the proper name.
The end of the 19th century saw a huge number of changes in firearms technology. One of the big changes (one of the more subtle ones) and is seldom thought about, it the advent of designs that did not have visible hammers. And, "safeties" showed up.
Prior to this, everyone knew that a gun with the hammer back was ready to fire, and that the hammer(s) were only cocked immediately before shooting. NO ONE carried around a gun cocked, and there were no safeties. From the days of the flintlock this was the pattern. Then new designs changed things.
Centuries of conditioning doesn't change overnight, and particularly when guns using the early system (visible hammer, no safety) are still in daily use alongside guns with the later designs. Hammer back (where you can see it) means DANGER!
BUT, where you can't see it, hammer cocked means less awareness of the risks. With all the hammerless, internal hammer designs there is no huge visible reminder of the status (cocked or not) constantly in your field of view when you look at the gun. There may be a small indicator, or there may be nothing, but there is nothing like a large hammer standing up and back getting your attention.
Some people freak out at the sight of a cocked and locked 1911A1, but never give a second thought to the rifle or shotgun in the exact same mechanical condition, simply because they cannot see that the gun's hammer is cocked.
I just picked up a pt111g2, it has a safety switch, easy to access and switch hot, firmer to go to safe. It has trigger safety and internal mech safety. Before buying this I was leaning to a hammer system with decocker like cz7, and I think fx9? The bersa thunder pro was also on my radar until I found the grip was massive to my hand.