Well, I guess I failed...

[armoredman]

I was told that my 200 yard group with my vz-58 rifle wasn't good enough, that I had to fold a piece of paper in half, fold up the corners, then attach that at the neckline of the B-27 target. That was my target zone. You see, I was told a rifle round isn't effective anywhere below that zone. OK, I've never shot a rifle at a human, and hope I never do, but I did find that a bit odd. Whatever, gives me a reason to shoot at 200 yards again.

Like this, I assume. This is the first 200 yard group target, reused, that's why it has taped holes already. I recycle.

Happy day, we have security guards qualifying next bay and nobody on the 275 yard range, so out to the berm it goes. The bay above the berm is the other 75 yards. Good thing I remembered the camera this time.

Good grief, that's kinda out there, isn't it?

I'm gonna hit that with this?:what:

All groups fired were done exactly like this, no benchrest, seated, I don't know if you want to call this supported or unsupported. That Israeli sling sure is comfortable...

OK, fire five, hold at head of B-27. I only have the one target, so I photographed it in place...carrying a camera and tripod 200 yards is interesting...

Can you see the new holes?

 

[armoredman]

How about now?

Not too shabby, but one clean miss you can barely see over the targets left shoulder.

Let's try again.

Trudge, trudge, sheesh, who's stupid idea was this? Oh, wait, mine...

Uh oh, which holes were the first and second? Let's guess, and then mark the third group with II signs. Eh, I guessed wrong on one of group 2.

Ya know, I can live with that, seriously. Load is Hornady 123 gr FMJ over 24 grains Accurate Arms #1680, COAl 2.17, CCI primers.
So, I'm sorry, friend, I guess I failed your 200 yard test, I didn't hit the paper "neckerchief" once. Guess I'll never make a rifleman, oh well.

 

[spotter123654]

keep tryin man haha

 

[ZeSpectre]

Good grief, that's kinda out there, isn't it?

I get that same feeling on the (rare) occasions I go past 150 yards. The folks who regularly shoot 200-300+ and come up with pie-plate groups just blow my mind.

 

[azredhawk44]

armoredman:

Get thee to an appleseed with that rifle! And get off the bench!

You'll hit the neckerchief.

Come out to the Buckeye shoot on March 27-28. Or, Payson or Sierra Vista on April 17-18.

Also, I think the reason someone suggested that region, is because it's what ISN'T covered by a ballistic vest. I've heard it suggested as a target with pistol drills when the first shot or two on COM don't seem to have an effect on your attacker. You do something called "zippering" where you raise your point of impact on the target as you walk your shots upwards towards the head.

 

[armoredman]

The odd thing is the person suggesting that is a police instructor. Hmm.
AZRedHawk, I'd love to, money and time, money and time. I might try some kneeling/prone stuff another time, when I have a rug to lay on, and a buddy to make sure nobody's running off with my stuff!
Thanks for the positive comments, I was actually pleasantly surprised to see it will shoot that well at that range.

 

[kraigwy]

I went to a NRA LE Officers Rifle Instructor course. We only shot at 100 yards but we had to put a Mailing Lable on the forehead. Had to hit the mailing label with a cold bore shot.

Thats kind of pretty wild groups for LE or Security since you have to account for ALL ROUNDS.

I'd forget that target and get some NRA 300 Yard Centers used for reduced to 100 yards. Practice where you can keep them in the X-10 ring which is about 2 MOA.

Appleseed is ok but check with your State Rifle and Pistol Assn. and find out who's putting on High Power Clinics. Thats where you really learn to use that type rifle. Also a lot cheaper, A few bucks to free. I dont change for my HP clinics.

 

[Old Grump]

You are zeroed now you are done with bench, time to shoot offhand till you are shooting groups again, sling use is essential in my old dinosaur opinion so you have a good start. After you get offhand down do the kneeling, sitting and prone at reduced targets unless you can find a 300 yard range.

Try a variety of targets, bullseye, deer, bear, mix it up and make it fun.

 

[Lashlarue]

Someone running off with your stuff,how paranoid. Who in their right mind is going to steal from an armed man with a rifle that could easily kill him at 200 yds.....

 

[Scorch]

I have been trained to shoot for the "golden triangle". A hit in that area will almost always prove fatal because of the confluence of large blood vessels, nervous system, respiratory system, and major skeletal structural members (spine, clavicle). But we were taught that the points of the triangle go between the points of the shoulders and up to the chin. Any way you do it, a round right at the base of the throat will ruin just about anyone's day.

 

[azredhawk44]

Appleseed is ok but check with your State Rifle and Pistol Assn. and find out who's putting on High Power Clinics. Thats where you really learn to use that type rifle. Also a lot cheaper, A few bucks to free. I dont change for my HP clinics.

Did you just make a jab at Appleseed?



To be fair, I've never been to a high power clinic or match so I have no idea how to compare or contrast the technique or quality of instruction, but I do think High Power is a bit silly (CMP matches especially so) in regards to what constitutes a legal rifle or sling. And the fact that you're allowed to single-load ammo that doesn't fit in the mag because it's too long (90gr bullets in a .223), but you're NOT allowed to use a sling from standing for slow-fire stages, is such a contradiction in priorities that I'm at a loss to explain the level of stoopid.

I'll be attending a few High Power and CMP matches over the next year and bringing as open a mind as I can to soak up whatever techniques I can... I'm certainly not the be-all-end-all of rifle shooters and I have lots of ways I can improve my personal shooting.

However:

Armoredman, you can bring your VZ-58 to an Appleseed and be allowed to shoot the event. You can bring your VZ-58 and whatever sling you have and whatever ammo you have and whatever sighting system you have and be allowed to shoot the event. Were you to enter in a High Power match, you wouldn't be allowed to compete with the service rifle shooters with that rifle.

I understand the distinction between Kraig's HP clinics and an actual match and I appreciate and applaud his efforts to instruct shooters and make riflemen of them...

But I would claim that the techniques taught at an Appleseed are more field-expedient and real-world applicable than those used in High Power shooting.

 

[kraigwy]

Did you just make a jab at Appleseed?

No Sir:

Not at all. I'm looking at the type of gun, and the type of shooting. Based on the post, and my knowledge of High Power & Appleseed, Plus my experience of Teaching Soldiers and LE Officers shooting the type of shooting needed by LE and Security, its my opinion that a High Power Clinic would better suit the OPs needs.

My only complaint against Appleseed is the cost, or at least the ones I've seen around here. I believe it scares people away. HP clinics, from what I've see are quite a bit cheaper.

I dont want those with less means to be deprived of being in volved in shooting sports. This is why I dont charge for my HP Clinics and SD Pistol/CCW classes. (Which I admit steps on tows of those trying to make a buck).

 

[armoredman]

kraig, it's the only large target for sale around here. We have one gunshop that's exclusively for good old boys, and a great pawn shop that doubles as a gunshop. That's where I got the B-27. I would like some larger bullseyes to try, as well. All my other targets are printed off the computer. I think I might try the mailing label trick sometime. A free shooting cliin would be very nice, but in almost 3 years down here I have yet to get anyone to go shooting with me.
Lashlarue, you might be surprised! Worse when you're 200 yards downrange, and see a car pull up behind your stuff, which, of course, includes the rifle...
Old Grump, I learned about slings a long time ago, (JROTC), re learning now, and they do make a huge differance.
AZRedHawk44, I would love to shoot an Appleseed, any day of the week and twice on Sunday...if I could get time and money. My boss hinted to me the Captain wishes I would spend more time at work...lots of time off for wife medical issues...getting better.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I will second his opinion that appleseeds are not cheap. I can walk out to a CMP shoot and get some pretty good shooters to instruct me basically for free.

If I go to the West Jefferson Appleseed it will cost me $90.

That said, since i can attain lodging in West jefferson for free, it seems my GF can attend for free, several friends can bring their children, etc, maybe I will go. I would almost certainly learn a thing or two.

 

[azredhawk44]

A free shooting cliin would be very nice, but in almost 3 years down here I have yet to get anyone to go shooting with me.

Need a shooting buddy?

I've heard about this range you guys have down towards Casa Grande and I've always meant to go down and check it out.

I've gotten a couple of requests from folks in Maricopa and Casa Grande to run an Appleseed event there, and I've never actually seen the range or talked to a rangemaster.

Another neat thing about Appleseeds is they tend to attract a lot of shooters out of the woodwork that don't do the High Power circuit. So, you get to meet a bunch of your neighbors that you didn't know were shooters, and can become range buddies and work on technique together.

I'll give ya some pointers on position shooting and sling use and such, if you let me put a few rounds through your PCR...

 

[armoredman]

PCR, P01, P07, absolutely. The range is very easy to get to, I-10 to I-8, Trekell road exit southbound, turn left on Arica, road turns to dirt, bear right while bemoaning that you don't belong to the nice trap club, pass the police range and turn left. Local, state and Fed LE shoot all week next door, get to hear some FUN toys out there - they had the SWAT armored car out there Tuesday...I do like armored vehicles...

if you want to reserve the range, have to go through CG parks and Rec, tried that, PAIN in the fundament, but it can be done, as a CAS club has the range reserved Mar 18-21nd.

 

[azredhawk44]

PM inbound.

 

[nate45]

Any way you do it, a round right at the base of the throat will ruin just about anyone's day.

Thats it put one in the wishbone and if there still standing one in the teeth.

I know this is the rifle forum, but thats how I practice my Mozambique Drills with the 1911, two in the wishbone, one in the teeth; Or with my SAA .45, or DA .44 one in the wishbone, one in the teeth. Then they should fall on over.

 

[armoredman]

I'd agree, but I can't see thier teeth at that range.
PM answered - should get a Southern Arizona Shooting Club together...aka Old Armed Desert Rats.

 

[arizona98tj]

I would have to say that Appleseed is a bit more than OK. They teach you everything you need to know to be proficient out to 400 yards, standing to prone.....with the requirements of shooting 4 MOA or better.

4 MOA may not get one far in the HP circuit, but it sure will put meat on the table, make for some great shooting fun with friends and family, and will certainly provide you with the skill set necessary to defend your family and and good portion of your neighbors should it ever come down to that.

And for what it is worth, there is a bit more to Appleseed than just learning to be a marksman......it's a whole lot about our proud heritage.....something a lot of today's folks are pretty near clueless about, IMHO.

I would encourage everyone who hasn't had a chance to attend an Appleseed to do so.....(and no, I don't teach them)....I've been to several and do believe it's worth it.

And to the OP......I think you're doing pretty darn good!