Weak index finger on trigger guard / finger forward technique, pros/cons

[Para Bellum]

However, if you have haabituated yourself to wrapping that finger out an inch or so ahead of your firing hand's trigger finger and parallel to it -- and then, in an emergency, find yourself with a picked-up .25 auto that points low -- the position in which you've habituated yourself to place that support hand index finger can now put it directly in front of the muzzle of the much smaller, lower-pointing gun.

...I am very likely to shoot one handed in an "emergency, find yourself with a picked-up .25 auto" - situation. And for that rare case, if I shoot the tip of my finger off with a .25 but manage to survive with that tool of combat, that still would be a good deal to me. Especially if on the other side that makes me faster and more precise with the G26 I do carry 24/7/365 and don't even have to pick up.

Thank you very much folks, I am impressed by the dynamics of my little question.

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.
DVC.

 

[Charles S]

There is no right or wrong way, there is the way that works for you.

That statement reeks, I suppose there are no winners are losers either.

In real life there is a correct way and a wrong way, just because your way is not correct does not make it correct. In real life there are winners and losers also.

you are deluding yourself if you don't think equipment matters..

Equipment matters, but I bet a master class shooter would out shoot anyone with poor technique with their own gun on the shooters best day and the grand masters worst.

Equipment matters when it comes to two masters class shooters competing, not when a great shooter competes with the average Joe...especially one with no training and little if any directed practice.

You are deluding yourself if you think that just anyone can shoot with a masters class shooter if only they used their gun. One of my instructors is Jerry Miculeck his favorite 45 ACP is a stock S&W revolver, care to try to shoot against him?

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.

Why did you ask the question? I actually am quite surprised I have read your post for a long time and find you intelligent and quite reasonable. You have been told by experts that it is a poor technique and is actually unsafe and yet you persist to believe that your choice is best.

Just so you know it is unsafe. I have seen two shooters using that technique in the ER with lead in their finger after shooting a revolver with wad cutter loads. If the cylinder gap is too large and the timing is off you are asking for trouble.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

I would be willing to bet you have had little or know training.

Try a class with Ayoob, Farnam or Smith and see what they think, their classes are focused on combat not competition.

If you want to be faster try a course with Latham, Clark or Miculek and see what they advocate.

Para, if you are better than the majority of shooters I applaud you. At this point you should still strive to better yourself and improve upon what you can already do.

 

[Magyar]

It's strange how some people who have taken a course of instruction at a gun school seem to be an expert all of sudden...Name dropping, mentioning that some people do not have training & suggesting that some need to go to "school" so to speak.
When does the 2% all of sudden become "GrandMasters"? Comparing this class do the avge pistolero doesn't make sense in terms of an argument.
You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.
Besides, when the "perp" is hit in the K-Zone he's not going to know if your were 2" to the right on your shot....
I suggest that some of you "Bullseye" shooters need some training....
Lurper, I was wondering when you were going to work that video in your post..Bill's Drill is a waste of time & ammo by anyone's stds....Anyone w/o arthritic hands can do the same, so what?
Chas.S, there are people that post on these sites that have training you can only imagine w/o suggesting that others do the same...

 

[Charles S]

You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.

Sorry you are absolutely incorrect. I have seen what the top shooters can and do do with stock guns and I was very impressed. The average guy cannot even come close. I live quite close to Mr. Miculek, Mr Clark, and Ms. K. Clark Miculek. I have seen all of the above shoot with stock guns. Mr. Miculeck's truck gun is a stock Ruger Speed Six. I promise you that the average shooter cannot even come close to what he can do with that gun.

Don't take my word for it. Take Mr. Miculeck's class, he generally uses a 1911 with less tuning than mine, shoot against him and see how you do.

Chas.S, there are people that post on these sites that have training you can only imagine w/o suggesting that others do the same...

What exactly is your point? That it it inappropriate to advocate training; or that those with training should not advocate that others get training; or that there are those who don't need training.

There are also plenty of other experts with no, imagined, or nebulous training that post.

You never answered my question. LOL. I doubt you ever will.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

I realize my training is incomplete, that is why I continue to take classes, to read books on training, to read this board, to shoot both self defense oriented practice, and when I have time competition, and to realize that I still have a lot to learn. IMHO self defense is not a goal, but a path in which one strives to keep the tenets of self defense in mind (for example being alert), trains both physically and mentally in a multidisciplinary approach to self defense.

 

[Lurper]

You take the real 2%, shooting stock .45's off the shelf with WWB 230gr FMJ, with the guy who's shooting fairly regularly; sorry, not much difference.

You really need to get out more. I shoot with hundreds of people a week, many of them "regular" shooters and there is a huge different between the 2%ers and the rest.

Bill's Drill is a waste of time & ammo by anyone's stds....Anyone w/o arthritic hands can do the same, so what?

Umm . . . let's see, the ability to hit the "A" zone 6 times in under 2 seconds from the draw. Yeah, that doesn't have much to do with practical shooting or shooting skill does it? :barf: Come to think of it, a rank beginner can do that.

As far as the Bill Drill goes, your comment shows your clear lack of knowledge about both the drill and practical shooting in general. It is an excellent sight and trigger skill builder.

Don't take this as a personal attack Mag, but you constantly make comments that have no basis in reality. Like the ones about light loads, light springs, etc.. None of that is true. As has been pointed out several other times in other threads, in IPSC the power factor of every competitor is checked. No one shoots light loads. That was part of the principles the sport was founded on. Yet you still make those claims! You really should do more research.

The best shooters are the best shooters period. Not because of equipment, not because of money, not because of any inherent ability, but because of hard work and determination. What makes them the best is their technique.



One thing the video does though is proves that I can do what I claim I can. I haven't seen you back up your boasts.

My apologies Para for hijacking your thread. Do what you think works, but just because your local GM does it doesn't mean it is a valid technique. You aren't the first person to travel down that road.

 

[Para Bellum]

Charles S

I honor all replies and recommendations and just peacefully say that I am not convinced to proceed as I have been doing.

Why did you ask the question? I actually am quite surprised I have read your post for a long time and find you intelligent and quite reasonable. You have been told by experts that it is a poor technique and is actually unsafe and yet you persist to believe that your choice is best.

I generally don't accept experts or authority for their names or functions, I only accept good arguments. I am just not convinced and wanted to find out why some people recommend not to do it. And now, after to the kind participation of many folks here, I am still not convinced

Just so you know it is unsafe. I have seen two shooters using that technique in the ER with lead in their finger after shooting a revolver with wad cutter loads. If the cylinder gap is too large and the timing is off you are asking for trouble.

I don't shoot revolvers. Only Glocks. This is especially about the Glock 26. With the G19 and G17 I didn't notice improvement with the finger on the trigger bar because those guns have a three-finger-grip.

For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

It doesn't matter who teaches you. E.g. I train once a week with an IPSC Grandmaster who frequently wins Level III torunaments and on good days, I beat him on one stage. So what? If we both were wrong in a specific issue? If Eric Grauffel were wrong on a specific issue? Being #1 in the world wouldn't make his position on that issue right, would it. Thats why I asked here. I was looking for arguments and not for status.

I would be willing to bet you have had little or know training.

Para, if you are better than the majority of shooters I applaud you. At this point you should still strive to better yourself and improve upon what you can already do.

Thanks, I do. That's why I keep discussing here. If we wouldn't question the state-of-the-art of today, there wouldn't be any improvement tomorrow.

 

[Charles S]

Para,

Since you only shoot Glocks I personally don't see safety as an issue for you. Since you are shooting and beating on a stage a IPSC Grandmaster the weak finger on the Trigger guard is obviously working for you.

I used to shoot this way with an auto (not a revolver after seeing the injuries in the ER), but the individuals I have trained with corrected me. My times improved after abandoning the technique, and adopting a grip that is almost exactly like what Lurper illistrates (I lock my weak wrist with my weak thumb along, but under the slide). We are all individuals, and what works for you may not work for me and vice versa.

I assume from your response your training is with the Grand Master. I encourage you to diversify, take classes from others and you will continue to grow and evolve from your exposure to other shooters. For a competition focus the Chapman Academy is excellent, as is Mr. Miculek's school. If you have already done this again I applaud you. I am not currently shooting competitively due to time constraints (two young kids and an intensive MS program plus work), but even if I was I am not anywhere close to shooting on a GM level even with the training I have had.

Good luck, I enjoyed the discourse, IMHO there is nothing wrong with disagreement. We can all learn from others.

 

[Magyar]

My apologies Para for hijacking your thread

That's nice..You didn't apologize to me when you hijacked my thread by attaching an amusing video to your post...It had nothing to do with what I was professing...BTW, Bill's Drill has nothing to do with the real world...If you are not seeking cover after the 1st & 2nd shot; you've got a serious problem..This drill (Give Wilson credit) is a skill that is overly-exaggerated and most serious shooters still claim it's a waste...
Any poster, that includes Chas. S., that uses self-promotion, a.k.a, "tooting one's horn" to lend credence to an argument in all liklihood is not too secure. No one cares about one's experiential level since much of it is pure, unadulterated BS...Whether you are next-door neighbor to Clint Smith, Gabe Suarez, Jerry Usher, or whoever is appropriately called "name-dropping": a propaganda technique....
I will repeat again, a Grand Master, is at the pinnacle. Talk about the guy who finishes 29th and give him a factory format pistol with nice heavy loads...Now we're talking about the 2% that you suggested...Equipment, ammo, does make a difference...I give Mas credit for arguing decades ago about evening the playing field, at least in PPC competition, by using stock formats for all competitors...
If Para uses the weak index finger w/guard; more power to him....

 

[Charles S]

that uses self-promotion, a.k.a, "tooting one's horn" to lend credence to an argument

I am not tooting my own horn. I am providing a reference for my opinions to show that they are based upon the expertise of others and not on ignorance. Where I was educated it was stressed upon me to give credit to individuals for their ideas and work. I try my best to give credit to others for their expertise and for the work they have done. It is not to drop names, but I do reference the information I provide. I have given actual bibliographical information in post before. I am not surprised you did not recognize that fact.

When I learn something, I try to give credit to the person I learned from.

I have no agenda. I am interested in providing accurate information regarding self defense and shooting and providing individuals with the resources necessary to obtain training and become proficient in shooting and self defense if that is their desire. I do not claim to be the one to provide the training necessary, but I can direct them to those who can. I have and will be happy to recommend instructors to anyone who is interested.

I am not providing propaganda; every bit of information I have provided is based upon the teaching of respected experts in the fields of self defense and shooting. I provided the names of the experts for others to decide if the information is credible.

Again, you did not answer my question. Upon what is your opinion based?

You never answered my question. LOL. I doubt you ever will.

Quote:
For those of you who advocate this technique I have a question, what classes and training have you had? Did they advocate this this technique?

 

[Lurper]

It's simple Mag. Some of us are actually qualified to offer an opinion, others are not. On the internet, everyone has an opinion to offer. Most are exactly like what they say opinions are like.
However, I have a unique level of experience and ability that I chose to share with some here for free, even though others pay me to teach them. I do that because I want to help people become the best shooter they can. If I can save them some of the pain, aggravation, frustration and expense of learning then unlearning, I am glad to. They can choose whether to take the advice or not. I have been fortunate enough to have been one of the best shooters in the sport. I was taught by and shot with the best (and still do). I was sponsored by many companies, am qualified to teach many different classes and have in fact taught thousands including civilans, LE and military. You can call that self promotion if you like. I call it providing bona-fides so that those who are serious about improving their technique don't have to spend time and money trying to sort through all of the Bull**** to find the pearls. Again, it goes back to who do you want to listen to? The internet ace or someone who is a professional and does it for a living?

 

[Para Bellum]

Good luck, I enjoyed the discourse, IMHO there is nothing wrong with disagreement. We can all learn from others.

exactly. I thank you for your time and thought!

Again, it goes back to who do you want to listen to? The internet ace or someone who is a professional and does it for a living?

I will listen to all and adapt what works for me or convinces me.

All the best,
PB

 

[zenner22]

A few have said that the finger hooked in front of the trigger guard could be dangerous with a revolver or a small auto. I am curious, could the same also be said for the thumbs forward grip? I've seen some competition shooters with extreme forward thumb postions which appeared to me to be more potentially dangerous than a finger wrapped around a trigger guard. Is this not an issue?

 

[Charles S]

A few have said that the finger hooked in front of the trigger guard could be dangerous with a revolver or a small auto. I am curious, could the same also be said for the thumbs forward grip?

In my opinion yes it is an issue (not everyone will agree) I do not use a thumb forward grip with a revolver or with a very small auto like my Kel-Tec. Some might, but I don't.

I do prefer the thumb forward grip on my full sized guns and I find that it really helps as I step up to larger calibers for example the 45 ACP and the 10mm. I really cannot tell much of a difference with by 9mm BHP or CZ.

Is this not an issue?

Yes, I think one must always keep safety a priority.

 

[WESHOOT2]

blown horn

I wanna see the video.....

I wanna know who Lurper is....


I wanna be younger.......

 

[tharmer]

weshoot2,
I've seen the video and it's impressive. My thought is that if you can shoot that fast and that accurately, you aren't going to need to move at all. The game would be over.

 

[Magyar]

I've seen the video and it's impressive. My thought is that if you can shoot that fast and that accurately, you aren't going to need to move at all

Fortunately, these days are not the "dusty streets of Dodge City"....However, a nice skill, it's practicality in the real world of self-defense is marginal...Standing in the open is not very healthy. The validity of a rigidly controlled scenario, such as this, was one of the factors in creating the IPSC. Diversity, where two matches never include the same courses of fire.
BTW, I'm dismayed at the amount of "chest-thumping" that seems to be more prevalent these days. If we could only separate "fact from fiction"; maybe I would include my own....