We really cant design a better gun?

Slamfire

New member
I find it hard to believe that after all these years we STILL cant design a better propellant for firearms, one that leave little or no fouling after firing

Chemical reaction kinetics and thermodynamics are still the same as they were back in the 1880's.

If anyone has a better chemical compound than nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose, I am all ears. And I expect, so is the ammunition industry.

By the way, solid rocket propellant is the same basic stuff as gun powder. Just slower burning.
 

EnoughGUN

New member
44 AMP, On the nose. We can build a better gun. We could build a gun that throws no brass, runs clean, holds more round with far greater power and range. What we can't do is do this and make it anywhere near close to worth the money. Fact is modern guns get the job done at honestly a very low price while being pretty simple and amazingly reliable and durable. If you want a super weapon no prob. Just be ready to spend several hundered thousand dollars for a handgun that does the same thing your $600 .45 does.

On a side note I was thinking about pulsed plasma weapons and energy based weapons some people have mentioned. OK, yeah they are possible with the right power source but think about it. If over penetration on a normal handgun is an issue these days with innocent people being hit by stray bullets and bullets passing through a target what about firing a plasma gun into someone or missing someone. Oh hey there is a sewer over there and you just ignited three miles of methane filled tunnels on fire and blew half the city apart. Rail guns!? Talk about over penetration! Yeah I got the guy but the round wizzed though him, a wall, two walk in frezzers and some poor guys new car then killed his cat.
 

uncyboo

New member
On a side note I was thinking about pulsed plasma weapons and energy based weapons some people have mentioned. OK, yeah they are possible with the right power source but think about it. If over penetration on a normal handgun is an issue these days with innocent people being hit by stray bullets and bullets passing through a target what about firing a plasma gun into someone or missing someone. Oh hey there is a sewer over there and you just ignited three miles of methane filled tunnels on fire and blew half the city apart. Rail guns!? Talk about over penetration! Yeah I got the guy but the round wizzed though him, a wall, two walk in frezzers and some poor guys new car then killed his cat.

All this coming from a guy with a handle like yours...........:D


J/K this has been a good thread.
 

javven

New member
Firearms have come a long way. Metallurgy, CNC machining, synthetic materials etc have helped the cartridge & rifle combo a lot. Still - the statement is kind of like saying "why isn't there something better for lighting cigarettes" than a lighter? Lighters have improved to be sure - but the basic design has been around a while and WORKS.

Firearms are and should be simple devices (compared to, say a computer). If your computer is 50x better than your last unit, but has say a 5% chance of catastrophic failure that's OK. I am not OK with firearm catastrophic failure.

Simplicity also lends itself to accuracy.
 

BillCA

New member
First of all, gunpowder is what was used before the advent of smokeless propellants. What we call gun powder today is actually a solid granular propellant made of nitrocellulose - which is why it was first called "Gun cotton".

A buddy of mine was a mix-technician at United Technlogies rocket division. He mixed the materials to make solid fuel rockets and poured it into the moulds. Various compounds and mixtures are amazingly powerful. Different mixes have different burn rates, just like smokeless powders.

But the engineers, physicts and chemists who create this stuff told him that nothing will burn "cleanly" if you want to control the burn rate.

As to new technologies... Remington tried with their electronic ignition system. That's fine on a sports rifle, target gun or match gun. Not so fine when it's used to defend against any kind of predator. I've never trusted batteries to work just when I need them. I'm not staking my life on the battery.

Several handgun designs show that we can lower the bore axis even more to reduce recoil. See the S&W M61 Escort and 422 series of .22's or the Mateba revolver. The concept of a magazine-fed self-loader means a compact gun with the bore higher than the hand or dictates a magazine located outside of the handgrip (e.g. the 1896 Mauser).

I can think of at least two examples of innovations that did not work. Anyone who has seen or fired a 13mm Gyro-Jet Rocket Pistol may recall it was designed in the early 60's.
gyrojet.jpg


The other gun was the bizzare Dardick Revolver which fired a "tround".
824.0.jpg

Dardick 1500 Revolver

These guns worked, but not always 100% due to ammo issues. But no one would fund their next steps. People are out there thinking of new ways to project power to remote locations. Just so far, the use of smokeless powder and led bullet seems to be the most efficient.
 

Norrick

New member
we've got rail guns and gauss cannons but theyre still not very practical. alot of energy is required to propel the projectile , wherever there is friction there will always be fouling though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y54aLcC3G74

it looks like they'll be an artillery type weapon, because they're just so big. It will be a long long time before we see anything handheld that doesn't require some enormous external power supply
 

HiBC

New member
If you select an appropriate powder for the load you are shooting,and if you are using quality components,I think you will find them remarkably clean.

However,I have seen some ammo fom offshore that was filthy,and left a getty,black nasty fouling.I solved that problem.I do not buy barn carpet ammo any more.

In the case of rimfires,it is often bullet lube accumulation rather than powder fouling.
Last weekend I fired 3 reloader 15 75 gr .223 loqads through a chronograph.I got 2765,DUPLICATE,and 2766.
Powder companies have been serving us very well,imo.
 

handlerer

New member
I don't believe that there can be a significant breakthrough in weaponry until they develop the room temperature superconductor. This would make frictionless resistance free transmission of power. In theory a handheld device could eject projectiles with lethal ballistics faster than we can detect with our senses. They have been working on room temp superconductors for decades, and I haven't heard of them being for sale yet. This could make possible a Dorsai needle gun. You could carry thousands and fire thousands in a second. They have them all figured out, all they need is the room temp superconductor, which is closely guarded under area 51, I know from reliable authority.
 

B.L.E.

New member
By the way, solid rocket propellant is the same basic stuff as gun powder. Just slower burning.

Gun powder (black powder) rockets are only used in small model rockets and fireworks.
The space shuttle boosters use powdered aluminum instead of charcoal and ammonium perchlorate instead of saltpeter.
 

BillCA

New member
Re: Electronics & power systems.

Just a thought here... the problem with things like rail-guns is the power required to operate them for each pulse to send a projectile downrange. Of course, the other issue is that the projectile needs some magnetic properties too - brass, copper, lead are non-magnetic.

It'll take less energy to accellerate a light (100-200gr) slug downrange than a 1700gr slug the military might use.i can corsee someone loading a "cartridge" that is essentially a full-discharge battery. Pull the trigger and the "cartridge" discharges its stored energy all at once, runnning the rail magnets.

But there are a few "techncal" problems to overcome first.
 

rattletrap1970

New member
Well, I suppose there are other ways to do things, but, you need to put power into the system. Smokeless generates a lot of power for it's weight. Lets lay you have a gun that takes a drop of water and with electricity quickly and violently heats water immediately to a vapor. That takes a fair amount of electricity but it does work. Or have a fuel cell that separates water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. If continually given electricity the fuel cell will continue producing gas which can be used to fill pressure vessels (until the seals in the fuel cell blow). So you could, in effect make a gun that will recharge itself with explosive gas when fed electricity. You feed that gas that into a combustion chamber and ignite it behind a projectile. Both ideas work, however, they require power. Unfortunately more power than can be dragged around easily or economically.
 

Crosshair

New member
It'll take less energy to accellerate a light (100-200gr) slug downrange than a 1700gr slug the military might use.i can corsee someone loading a "cartridge" that is essentially a full-discharge battery. Pull the trigger and the "cartridge" discharges its stored energy all at once, runnning the rail magnets.

But there are a few "techncal" problems to overcome first.
No battery can discharge that fast. Capacitors can do it, but they can't store their charge long term.
 
how fast could you charge and release the kind of energy we are talking about from a capacitor? I only messed around with capacitors in ENGI H190 back before I decided I liked the appearance of women's legs more than physics equations(Ok, so I couldn't handle the calculus), and all I remember was it was long enough you had to wait and we were dealing with very small capacitors.

A person at my high school made one in ?2002? that charged from a wall socket and set up on a card table and fired a steel bearing fast enough it could leave a mark on carbon paper 5 feet away using camera flashes to time the electromagnets. Not all that impressive, but it was a kid at my HS. Of course I went to the same HS as most of the officers at WPAFB's kids, so her mom/dad was probably working on the real thing.

I doubt this technology will ever be good for more than a vehicle sized gun though.



Lasers you fire a burst and create a nasty patch of 1 inch deep burns destroying skin and sub-surface muscles, not a thin beam through the person.
 

B.L.E.

New member
Just a thought here... the problem with things like rail-guns is the power required to operate them for each pulse to send a projectile downrange. Of course, the other issue is that the projectile needs some magnetic properties too - brass, copper, lead are non-magnetic.

The projectile doesn't need to be magnetic, it only needs to conduct electricity. When millions of amperes go through the projectile, the electric current gives that projectile a magnetic field of its own that is repelled by the magnetic field generated by the millions of amperes going through the rails that the projectile connects together.
 

jman841

New member
what about other projects like the XM 25 weapon that the army is hoping to start fielding by 2012. Grenades that are computer controlled to explode in mid air. Thats pretty impressive technology in my opinion.

but could we ever have a gas/hydrogen powered projectile? What about having a weapon operate more like a combustion engine where a bullet is dropped into the chamber, then a gas or mist of something is introduced behind it, then a spark is ignited when the trigger is pulled sending the projectile down the barrel?

just a thought
 

B.L.E.

New member
what about other projects like the XM 25 weapon that the army is hoping to start fielding by 2012. Grenades that are computer controlled to explode in mid air. Thats pretty impressive technology in my opinion.

Disneyland already uses radio detonated morter shells launched by compressed air cannons for their fireworks displays. This allows for a precision and explosion synchronization that would be impossible or very difficult with time delay fuses.
but could we ever have a gas/hydrogen powered projectile? What about having a weapon operate more like a combustion engine where a bullet is dropped into the chamber, then a gas or mist of something is introduced behind it, then a spark is ignited when the trigger is pulled sending the projectile down the barrel?

I believe that the potato gun has already been invented.:rolleyes:
 

BlueTrain

New member
There were artillery shells with timed fuses and fuses that would set off the shell if they just got close to the target during WWII, 70 years ago, but no radio controlled fuses. That would be easy to overcome by the enemy, just as the army figured out how to set off radio controlled IUDs in Iraq.
 
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