Vote Gore: gun activist's long term strategy

[Jordan]

If you've studied guerilla warfare or the tactics of insurgency you know that sometimes the best way to destroy a regime and it's ideology is to actively support the worst elements of it.

If not, you've no doubt heard lines such as "lose the battle to win the war" and "to save the village we must destroy it"

We've seen a recognizable groundswell of new support from the recently apathetic and the once fence sitters following 8 miserable years of the Clinton administration.

Imagine the tsunami of "born-again" freedom lovers we'd recruit once Gore's been given a chance to stir the pot.

Are we ready to lull these masses back to sleep with 4-8yrs of mediocrity and false security under the benevolent Republicans?

Idiots like Clinton, and now Gore, are their movement's own worst enemy-- far worse than benign GW Bush could ever dream of being-- and they deserve our support!

In the title I called this a long term strategy. While that may prompt a reaction of impatience (especially when compared to the instant gratification imagined with a Bush election) it is more likely the quickest means to an end. That end being a RADICAL conservative/liberitarian rebellion.

What I'm suggesting is provoking a "FREEDOM BACKLASH".

Certainly we could weather the storm (with fingers crossed *hoping* for the imposition of confiscatory taxes, further international embarassment, the continued unchecked thugery of their blossoming police state, etc) because when it passed we could realize a change not possible through any other means. Definately not possible under the current one step forward, two steps back dualocracy.

Your "outside-the-box" thoughts and comments welcomed and appreciated.

 

[K80Geoff]

Same srategy gun owners have been discussing here in NY. Voting for the democraps to give them power so they can screw up the state really bad.
That's what happened to Mario Cuomo. Eventually people realized he was destroying the state and voted him out, of course then we got Pataki and he is proving to be just as bad.

Personally I believe that the economy is about to go in the tank, and of course the next president, especially if he is a republican, will get the blame. Best we have Gore for four more years to start the depression, then we may get a real republican after the 2004 elections.

Geoff Ross

 

[Byron]

Supreme Court appointments last a lot longer than 4-8 years, don't forget.

There will be no "freedom backlash" as long as new entitlements are added and old ones expanded, fastening a larger and larger proportion of the population to the Government Tit. The Demo strategy of taking money from the top 25% and giving it to the bottom 75% to buy their votes is a very effective one. I read the other day that 97% of Federal taxes are now paid by 50% of the population, meaning that for half our population the Government is now a truly wonderful thing.

It's hard to predict anything but a steady march toward a larger and more intrusive Nanny State. In other words, a continuation of the path we've been on for many years, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, but always in the same direction. Depressing.

 

[kjm]

The problem with this thinking is that Human beings are extrodinarily adaptable animals. They grow to tolerate the worst conditions and do it happily. The secret to human success in the world is that we are able to adapt. Just ask a real Viet Nam vet, especially an infantryman. Those are quite possibly the worst conditions a human being can be put through, yet, they survived, and a few learned to thrive. Same with the barbarous Japanese POW camps. People don't react to a steady and slow degradation of their liberties and freedoms. They react violently when change is exerted rapidly. (frog analogy). Ever wonder why kids being separated from abusive parents fight like hell to stay with the scum-bags? Because they are conditioned and adapted to living with pain and neglect. Your long-term strategy will backfire in that respect. The only success it will have is that if the Republicans in charge are notified that the reason they lost is because the Pro-gun voters threw them out. In other words, the NY guners are doing it right. The Republicrats have to know that they lost the pro-gun votes because they have done nothing. They have to lose that attitude of "who else ya gonna vote for, a Democrat?" That is why it may come down to voting for your enemy, in order to achieve your goals long-term. The real secret though is to insure that the Republicans know why they got thrown out in the first place.

 

[Jordan]

Byron:
Re: "steady march toward nanny state... sometime faster sometimes slower.. always in the same direction"

That is what I'm talking about. Marching faster with Gore, marching slower with Bush, but always in the same direction.

One thing we know about the type of system you describe (socialist/communist) is that taken too far they will implode under their own weight. History, literature, common sense tell us that by penalizing the achievers you kick the legs out from under. Add a measure of oppression and you have a very unstable situation indeed.

Following the collapse or disenchantment with that course, we would likely return to what we knew worked (see early America).

Understand my goal: To see real freedom in my lifetime, sooner the better.

You admit that, slowly or quickly, it's always in the same direction. When we know the end result is failure why wouldn't we want to reach it quickly.. the sooner to rebuild. In our lifetime ideally.

By nursing this dysfunctional government we only delay the course until future generations... generations that won't have a clue what to model their rebuild after.

KJM: For the very reasons you cited is why my idea is the ONLY way.

You say that over time people adapt or don't notice the gradual decline of standards.

Exactly! That is why we need to hurry it along. Idiots like Gore are impatient and may outrun their headlightsif given the chance. A Bush presidency, OTOH, gets us exactly your 'slow boiled frog' analogy.

I say let's crank the heat! Nothing gradual about it.

[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited October 08, 2000).]

 

[PaladinX13]

Sounds nice in theory, but has there ever been a successful demonstration of such a tactic on a large scale? I dunno, I keep thinking about the parable of the boiling frog in an open pot. Could you cite some historical successes of letting the political opposition win the "battle" to win the war?

 

[EnochGale]

Voting for Hitler because that will show how bad the Nazis are?

Nope - you folks who think there will be a revolution with general support over gun laws are just talking to yourselves. It won't happen.

We need to win this election now!!

After the Gore regime, a couple of Tim McVeigh events isn't going to make people love the RKBA. In fact, it will confirm the new regime.

Here's the logic:

1. We need new gun laws and gun owners can be nuts. Hunters can still have guns.
2. Gun owners shoot police and government officials in a "revolution"
3. Gore - see told you they were nuts. All guns confiscated. Turn in your neighbors.
4. You move into the mountains with one of those books on how to survive eating acorns and lizards.
5. You get prostate cancer and die in the mountains. Or your family is sick of no cable and goes back down the hill. Your sheep start looking mighty attractive.

 

[Valdez]

I know others have stated this, but if you want freedom or a protest vote why not vote for a third party that supports your position?

Both the Libertarians and Constitution party say no federal gun regs at all. If you vote for Gore it in no way sends a signal that you want freedom.

 

[dischord]

Gore isn't going to go hogwild with gun control -- the grabbers learned the folly of that long ago. He and they are in incremental escalation mode. ("We don't want to ban guns, we just want common-sense protections for our children")

If Gore is elected and the Dems take Congress, we will get piddly laws that don't address areas of real problem:

** All guns must be sold with trigger locks
** Checks for the *tiny* minority of gun show sales that don't alread go through NICS

And so on.

What will happen is that gun deaths will go down. **We** know they will go down because because that is the trend into the foreseeable future *without* those laws.

The majority of American in 2004 will be open to the propaganda that the new "common-sense" laws had something to do with it.

It's just like Brady -- no matter that the AMA said Brady didn't cause the drops since 1993, the grabbers repeat that it did so that the average American believes it.

Thus a vote for Gore is a vote for

1) Propaganda fodder for the grabbers
2) A supreme court packed with justices sympathetic to the grabber agenda

 

[RH]

Byron:
"There will be no "freedom backlash" as long as new entitlements are added and old ones expanded, fastening a larger and larger proportion of the population to the Government Tit."

absolutely priceless ! What is happening is that the successful in this coutry are going from being the ruling class to the servant class - indentured as slaves to the 75% who benefit from their hard work & taxes. hardly any way to encourage innovation in business or any other enterprise (except maybe thinking up new nanny programs).

Valdez:
every day it seems I am ranting in an effort to set third party zealots straight. Hear this loud & clear - no 3rd party will win this election. Getting 5% of the vote WILL NOT send any kind of message to the 2 main parties. It absolutely will not. Look at how much support David Duke got when he ran - did the GOP sit up and say "Gee, we'd better start talking to these white supremacists, we need their votes". heck no. Any Libertarian candidate & his supporters will be cast in the same light - as a bunch of fringe fruitcakes who add nothing to the process. Look at the Libertarian & Green platforms, do you think any pol who wants to get elected would co-opt their ideas into his platform ? no way.

What annoys me the most is the presumption of 3rd party candidates to run for the presidency outright. How arrogant !They need to establish credibilty and support by grassroots efforts at local offices, and build critical mass to effect change at the national level. Right now, 3rd parties in Prez elections are at best a joke, and at worst a spoiler - snatching victory from the "next best option" party and handing it to their polar opposites.

 

[Westtexas]

This is like shooting a sick horse, instead of nursing it back to health. You might save a lot of time and trouble, but then you've got to WALK into town from then on.

It's like saying I can't stand the high-capacity magazine ban, so I might as well sell my AR-15.

Vote for Gore and lose what remaining rights I have? Allow HIM to appoint supreme court justices that will change the face of the court for decades? Thanks but no thanks. I'm voting for Bush.

------------------
NRA Life Member
GOA
GSSF

 

[Bob Locke]

RH,

Actually, the Libertarian Party (of which I am NOT a member) has well over 1,000 political officeholders across the nation. Additionally, they are fielding 245 candidates in Senate and House races at the national level this year alone.

In short, they ARE doing what you propose.

 

[madmike]

RH Senior Member posted October 09, 2000 02:42 PM

>are going from being the ruling class to the >servant class - indentured as slaves to the >75% who benefit from their hard work & >taxes.

And a few hundred brutally rich socialists are the REAL ruling class.

>Hear this loud & clear - no 3rd party will >win this election.

In fact, since the media supports Gore, no Republcian will win. Why waste your time voting at all? It's all pointless.

Isn't it?

>Getting 5% of the vote WILL NOT send any >kind of message to the 2 main parties.

Odd. Because that's how the Communist PArty got the Dems to run their platform for them, and how the religious blight and right to life got their agendas into the REpublican platform.

>It absolutely will not. Look at how much >support David Duke got when he ran - did the >GOP sit up and say "Gee, we'd better start >talking to these white supremacists, we need >their votes".

hardly a valid comparison.


>Any Libertarian candidate & his supporters >will be cast in the same light - as a bunch >of fringe fruitcakes who add nothing to the
>process.

Also odd. Libertarians have elected a BUNCH of local candidates here in Indy. And I got a LOT of respect from the dems at the HobNob last week--they regard us as idealists, and are a bit afraid.


>Look at the Libertarian & Green platforms, >do you think any pol who wants to get >elected would co-opt their ideas into his >platform ? no way.

Gore is greener than the Greens. SEnator Ron Paul of Texas is a hardcore Libertarian in Republican clothing. Kinda blows that theory, huh?

>What annoys me the most is the presumption >of 3rd party candidates to run for the >presidency outright. How arrogant!

Yeah1 How DARE we take part in the electoral process and offer a choice!
You sound like the IL Supreme Court, who actually upheld that "having a third party on the ballot makes it too hard for most voters to decide."

>They need to establish credibilty and >support by grassroots efforts at local >offices,

Been there, done that. Got ignored by the news whores, and no support from people like you, because "We aren't a real party."


>now, 3rd parties in Prez elections are at >best a joke, and at worst a spoiler - >snatching victory from the "next best >option"

The "Slightly Less Extreme Socialists Than Our Competitors Party."

>party and handing it to their polar >opposites.

You know, if all the people like you voted Libertarian, we'd have 15% or 20% of the vote this time. The press couldn't ignore us, and next time it would be 35%. Then the White House and Capitol Hill.

Go ahead. Vote Republican. Throw your vote away.




------------------
“It is criminal not to teach a man to defend himself when he is the
constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a
shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law.”--Malcolm X

 

[ernest2]

Well , I see I need to throw my 5 dollars worth into the pot and give you all a piece
of what little is still left of my mind.

I am voting for Bush/ Chaney but then I am splitting off the rest of the ticket to
every Libritarian I can find on the ballet
for congressman and senator,and Libritarian all the rest of the way down to dog catcher first class. If I run out of Libritarians
I will hold my nose and fill in with Republicans.

Now, please allow me to explain the theory
behind all of this to you.

(Just my first point)
#1.
Gore will give us Gun Control Nasty,(G.C.N.) such as
a $50.oo to start off slowly with federal
yearly firearms registration fee mandatory
for all firearms rifles, shotguns and hand guns. That is the first year, next year the
fee increases to 100.oo per gun yearly and the third year 150.oo per year per gun.
Expect a $50.oo increase to the fed registration each additional year. Gore has to pay for his give away programs and we foot the bill unelse we sell our guns.

No big deal you think, because you only own 1 or 2 guns; so 150.oo x 2guns =300.oo a year for you.

I own 200 guns x 150.oo = $30,000.oo a year for me. Guess what, I only earn 20,000.oo
a year so I have a choice under Gore of becoming an instant criminal or I am forced to sell my collection which I spent 25 years
gathering.

By the way, this little puppy of a tax is retroactive on all the guns you own beginning taxation in the year of passage; it is not only on the new guns you may buy after the tax takes affect but on all the guns you
already have in your safe/closet for the past
x number of years.

I would not like this much, hell; not even a little bit. Totally unacceptable comes to mind.

Bush on the other hand , gives us some reasonable republican gun control lite.
Probably bans hi cap mags and gives into closing the gun show loop hole. But nothing that will drive us to sell our guns from economic necessity due to an exorbinate fed. gun registration tax.

POINT #2

Bush will be a lot easier for me to live with for the few somewhat healthy years I got left to me.

POINT # 3.

Gore may be dumb enough to out drive his headlights, but Bill & Hilary, his close
friends and advisors, will not let him make that mistake.

Prehaps, instead of gun confiscation as a knock on the door by machine gun toating jack booted black ninja turtles, we will recieve a federal gun tax bill so high and expensive that we must turn in the guns that we can not afford to pay the fed.tax on.

Sure says Al Gore, You can keep your gun if you can pay me the original purchase price in taxes each year! Otherwise, I'll just send an irs agent over to collect it in lue of back taxes due.

Far Fetched...closer to the ten ring I think!

If Al Gore don't do that ,it will be California divide and conquer tactics, one type of gun this year; another gun vilanized next year. etc & etc till no guns are left.

The single shot Harrington & Ritcherson 22lr
bolt action bunny rifle is the prefered assault rifle of criminals.

Zapped right in the face with the Mind Warping Politically Correct Mass Media
Brain Control Ray called nightly news.

No, there will be no revolt of angery NRA members eager to regain they second ammendment rights because we are spoiled and have it too comfortable at home and wish to
survive to support and nurture our wives and childern.

The changes will come slowly so that we will have time to get used to them before we get smacked up the side of the head with the next round of yet more unreasonable gun contol so called "laws".

VOTE FOR BUSH AND RETAIN MOST OF YOUR RIGHTS
A BIT LONGER YET.

Vote for Gore and loose all your guns to the 4 year plan.

POINT
NUMBERUS 4

Whats up with splitting the ticket by voting for Bush /Chaney and then all Liberitarians
for lower offices.

Just this: When Bush tries to give in to pressure for some Republican lite gun control
by turn coat republicans being pushed by democrap gun grabbers, the 66 % concensus
in Congress needed to pass them obnocious anti gun laws will be
.... "real hard to reach".... because we will have some pro gun democrats and some
pro gun republicans and all the pro gun Libertarians that we can elect to fight against the gun contol "laws".

That ought to split us Congress 3 ways an throw a monkey wrench into the works.

Point#5

The idea of letting Gore confiscate all our guns just to get every one mad at him......
won't work because we will end up just like the shooters we see on the NRA gun Confiscation Video...... in England, Australia and Canada.......Madder that wet hens
at the govt but impoetent to do any thing about it after all our guns are confiscated.

In a few words , all washed up and done for.

Just face it, America has been on the brink of revolution since 1968, but just as soon as any leader appears ,the police rush in and incarcirate him or shoot him up and zap ,
we get it right in the face with the Mind Warping Politically Correct Mass TV Media Brain Control Ray called the nightly news
where the potential leader is in only 3 minutes flat, completely vilanified and discredited and made to look a crazed fool
that no imbicle would consider following for even a second.

So Vote Bush/Chaney and split the rest of the ticket off to the Libertarians to throw a monkey wrench into congress and help tie up the govt in gridlock.

Damn , that was not 5 dollars worth of my mind but rather more like 1000.dollars and 50 one hunderdths.

 

[Randy Davis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ernest2:
<<snip>>

POINT #2

Bush will be a lot easier for me to live with for the few somewhat healthy years I got left to me.

[/quote]

Well folks, here we see that we have another REAL pickle of a problem, in a country with an expanding population of elderly citizens.

An oldster, who apparently doesn't care if his children and grandkids live in a growing police-state, as long as he gets to live in peace with himself, voting for more and more Nanny-Gov tyranny, when he pulls the lever for G.W. Shrub on November 7, 2000.

With thinking like this, may the Good Lord help us all.

We are going to need it

--------

RKBA Forever!

 

[jimmy]

I will not vote for Gore, the man who backed up his lying, devious, divisive chief for eight years. Gore has forfeited any conceivable claim to my vote.

No more Gore!

 

[416Rigby]

With all due respect to the doubtless creativity of this approach, I think it would effect disastrous consequences, to our cause, to our lives and to America in general.

This strategy is founded upon too many untested premises: who says that Gore won't infact numb more sheeple into safely curling up to the federal teat? who says that a majority of freedom-loving Americans will be outraged by Gore's tax-and-spend schemes? who says that more people (most of whom are educated in public schools, don't forget...) are even going to understand what freedom and especially freedom from government means?

If our grandfathers, who were born before WWII and the "great society", are now all ga-ga-gu-gu over social security and medicare and are willing to pay (and make us pay) over half of our salaries in taxes for the privilege, what in the whole wide world makes you think that 8 years of Gore will reverse that trend?

I'm sorry, but voting for Gore in the hope to effect a more dramatic change in our favor is a little kooky. It would be like if Geo. Washington, in the hope of rallying more young men to enlistment in the languishing months of the Revolution, had voluntarily sacrificed troops and helpless villagers to Col. Tarleton's bands of murderers. I totally disagree with this strategy and I think that it will do far more harm than good.

On the constructive side, I think that educating your friends/girlfriends/relatives/co-workers to the true meaning of Liberty is a far better way to bring about a real change of heart in this Country. Things are bad enough now, for anyone who understands and loves the Constitution and the principles underpinning it, we don't need to elect Gore for that.

We don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot in order to remind ourselves that we are ill.

------------------
Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org

Get some real news at www.worldnetdaily.com

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited October 10, 2000).]

 

[PaladinX13]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 416Rigby:
who says that more people (most of whom are educated in public schools, don't forget...) are even going to understand what freedom and especially freedom from government means?
[/quote]

An excellent point. I have friends from Japan who have no concept of private life or freedom from government... they simply don't grasp the idea. My friends from Canada and England have difficulty in understanding how the rights of the few mean anything compared to the "greater good".

 

[Jeff Thomas]

To each his own. A radical analogy, certainly, but, if I had been a German citizen, I would hope I wouldn't have voted for Adolf Hitler in the '30's.

For me, the judiciary is 90% of this story. I believe the best strategy is (1) vote Bush, and keep our fingers crossed that good men and women will occupy the judiciary over the next 4 - 8 years (and, return the country to a Constitutional path of freedom and personal responsibility), (2) use the time available to implement programs and educational efforts to do the same with the populace - reform the educational system, educate people re: the RKBA, etc.

From my reading of history, helping to bring on what Gore and his ilk hold in store for us could mean 20 years plus of pain and loss. Loss of freedom, loss of assets and loss of life.

I think it is optimistic to believe that there would be some general epiphany regarding freedom on the part of our people, and the backlash and return to freedom would occur in a short period of time.

Voting Gore ends our chances, very quickly, IMHO.

Regards from AZ

 

[elector]

I think the best long term strategy is to *defeat* Gore. In doing so, we let the Democrat Party know that gun control is a *losing* issue for them. It's a lesson that the Dems were exposed to in '94, but it requires the loss of the biggest political plum, the presidency, to make it a lesson they won't forget. In their own self-interest, the Dems won't push gun control as hard, if they know they won't succeed in using it as leverage for political power.

My $0.02.