Video games and shootings...

[Gaerek]

The biggest reason why so many people discredit the claim that video games and movies contribute to violence in society is out of pure denial.

Anything to support this claim? Just because something seems reasonable does not make it so. Millions play violent video games every day. We are not talking about a small secluded sect of society. We are talking about video games that are played by pretty much every part of society, across economic, social, cultural, and racial lines. I personally know a well respected doctor and lawyer who both play games like Halo, Gears of War and Grand Theft Auto. Those who don't play video games have no idea how many people actually play. If video games had a measurable effect on violence, we would see mass murders occurring everyday. Yet they are still fairly rare, and constitute a very small percentage of total murders.

Just like a cigarette smoker will find any way possible to convince himself that smoking cigarettes will one day not lead to his death. My father also argued like that.. he died of lung cancer.

lcpiper did a good job dismantling this analogy, so I won't spend much time on it. There is a well known, and well documented increase in cancer for those who smoke. It's been studied for years, and the ONLY possible conclusion is that smoking will eventually kill you. People have been studying violent video games since the 90's, and with the exception of a few fringe studies (most of which have been discredited) there is no known increase in violent behavior between someone who plays violent video games, and those who do not.

If you are afraid to let your 3 year old watch the "Walking Dead" or watch you play "COD"... it should be proof positive that deep down you know that these things are not good to expose young people to.

Um, I don't let my 3 year old daughter watch Walking Dead or play CoD because those things are scary to her. She walked in once when we were watching an episode of Walking Dead after she had supposedly gone to sleep, and had watched a particularly violent scene. We didn't know she was there until she ran away crying. It took me 15 minutes to calm her down and get her back to sleep.

It's because her mind, and her perception of reality isn't ready to accept these things yet. She isn't old enough to realize there's a difference between real life and what she sees on TV. The problem with mass murderers is their mental state. Video games will not make someone who doesn't have violent tendencies violent. Instead, those type of people are attracted to them for whatever reason.

Again, Correlation is not Causation. We need to be very careful when we try to make those jumps in logic. If there's a correlation, we need to know why before we say it's a reason something happens. Saying that violent video games cause mass murder would be like me saying that the stink that accompanies my son's dirty diaper, causes it to be that way. There is a correlation between stink and dirty diaper, but the stink isn't the cause, it's simply an effect.

 

[thallub]

As was Charles Witman, who most decidedly did not have any violent video games to set him off.

Charles Whitman had a brain tumor. Whitman was aware that something was drastically wrong and he tried to get help.

 

[Gaerek]

Charles Whitman had a brain tumor. Whitman was aware that something was drastically wrong and he tried to get help.

That's sort of the point. The one thing that almost all mass murderers have in common is some type of mental illness. People committed mass murder prior to video games, and we need to find the cause. Using the media as a scapegoat actually hurts our argument.

 

[Beentown71]

I think we all know a "normal" person that plays video games are not going to become a mass murderer. Taking arguments to extremes and saying because the majority of gamers don't become mass murderers it then implies that these games have no effect is myopic.

 

[Gaerek]

The problem is, we're blaming video games because we think it takes the heat off guns. Yet, it's the same knee-jerk reaction the gun-grabbers used in the days following Sandy Hook. We don't want our guns taken away, so, oh, the shooter played video games? Must be it! The one commonality we have with nearly all mass murderers is they have some type of mental issue. But there is no such correlation between video games and mass murders. Many mass murders happened prior to video games. Some recent mass murderers didn't play video games. Most people don't realize that the VT shooter did NOT play violent video games (even though right afterwards, there was a huge knee-jerk reaction blaming them!)

About the only correlation that can found between violence and video games is that they can influence the "type" of violence, and how it's perpetrated. But studies that have been done seem to show that violent types are attracted to violent video games. They are used by people who are already violent. They don't cause violence. In other words, if you aren't violent, and you play a violent video game, you won't become violent. If you're already violent, and play a violent video game, it might change how you manifest your violence, but it won't make you more violent.

 

[TailGator]

While I personally believe that violence is a multi-factorial problem, I cannot help but reflect that the same society that considers cock fighting, bull fighting, dog fighting, and the excesses of the Roman coliseum to be barbaric, sees slasher movies, violent video games, and graphic violence in films and television as mere entertainment. The simple truth is that the healthy human form is more heavily censored than its wanton destruction.

 

[lcpiper]

I'll throw something in to help people get a feel for how many people play violent video games, but that there is also a distinction in types of violent games.

Just how big will the release of Grand Theft Auto IV be? Well, according to some sources, pre-sales may push the first week numbers of GTA IV above the six million copies mark. That would be around $400 million dollars in just five days.

Publisher Electronic Arts sold more than 12 million copies of its soccer sim FIFA 13. Sales of the latest FIFA game and more than $100 million in digital revenue from the title.

Black Ops 2 pre-orders have outsold the original Black Ops pre-order numbers at the rate of 3 to 1 within its first 24 hours of availability. This follows up the original Black Ops record setting numbers back in 2010 that still holds the record for most units sold at 13.7 million in the United States alone.

Now I guess if someone is going to play a violent game, perhaps putting yourself into the shoes of a Navy SEAL is better then those of a Psychotic murder of old ladies and prostitutes, but still. I'll let the numbers illustrate whatever it is they illustrate.

 

[Come and take it.]

I wouldn't have a problem allowing a 1 year old to be around (so long as they have hearing protection) when firing any kind of gun you can think of.

Not sure where someone thinks a person should be afraid of letting their young child be around guns like they would graphic violence.

The argument of protecting media violence from regulation is in simile to a one person seeing a rock on the ground and stating that such is there, while another claims it doesn't exist. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the effect of violent images on peoples behavior is undeniable. It brings more immorality out of people than it brings morality.

I however think a person should be free to expose themselves to whatever they want. This society will only get worse unless people start doing some hard thinking and pull their heads out of whatever trash bin they have it stuck in.

Mass killings are not the problem, they are the symptom.

Guns have been around for well over half a mellenium. However we have only really seen some of the most hideous individually accomplished mass murders in the last 100 years. motion picture entertainment has been around for the same length of time.

Coincidence? I say no. And a surgeon general once who I bet had more credentials to his name than anyone in this forum agreed during the 70s too.

That has been 40 years ago. I wonder what he would think of todays entertainment if he found 70s entertainment disturbing.

 

[LockedBreech]

I think we all know a "normal" person that plays video games are not going to become a mass murderer. Taking arguments to extremes and saying because the majority of gamers don't become mass murderers it then implies that these games have no effect is myopic.

And saying games do have an effect with no neutral, properly conducted study saying so is nothing but speculation.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

There is a documentary out there; it is on You Tube and about 95 minutes long
The War on Kids: The Definitive Documentary on the Failure of the Public Education System

If you watch this, you will see how the drugging of kids with Ritalin and similar drugs has been shown to be present or part of the history of EVERY kid involved in mass shootings and major incidents.

It isn't the video games, it is the failure of the education system resulting in the use of psychotropic drugs that have caused a lot of what we are dealing with today

 

[gav1230]

Video games are not the problem. Plenty of nations have even more video games then America without all the shootings, and I'd be willing to be that most war torn third world countries don't have a lot of video games.

 

[ZRTaylor]

I'm a young guy, also a gamer, and even though this might not be the ideal forum for the statement I'm about to make, I hope its intent will be well received.

I'm not well versed in the shooting community yet, but part of what seems to keep shooting alive and fun is the culture that exists around it. The passing down of skills and knowledge from father to son, sharing memories and love of a sport and a pastime. In many ways that culture is the key to why a love of and respect for firearms continues to be something that a newcomer such as myself can take up. Many countries don't offer their young people that opportunity any more.

Similarly, I identify myself as a gamer. We gamers have forums that we frequent, review sites that keep us apprised of the newest products and accessories for our chosen hobby, and we even have group meetings where we share our love of games (violent or otherwise, and there's a LOT of otherwise) with each other and play them. Gaming, however, is a young pastime. We're just now entering our first real generation, in which fathers and mothers who love games are getting the chance to pass that love down to their children.

However, fingers are being pointed, lines are being drawn, and even the NRA is trying to suggest that my hobby, my pastime, should be limited before it's even had a chance to properly bloom. Our sub-culture as gamers, our identity, is under threat of being hobbled and stagnated, and there's no way to know where such limiting measures (if enacted) could stop. Australia, in a fashion very similar to how that country seem to handle firearms, already has a ratings board that censors and limits what games are even allowed in to the country. Many games have to be changed from their original form, watered down, and bastardized just to make it through their censors board. Some games don't even make it in at all. Those games cannot be imported, legally downloaded, or played in any fashion. There have been several statements by members of US legislation suggesting a similar board since the release of Doom and similar games in the early 1990s. This is horrifying to people who enjoy games.

My fundamental point is this. Gamers and firearms lovers are two cultures that have a large amount of overlap. Similarly both our hobbies, and our opportunity to share and enjoy those hobbies how we wish to, are under threat from unnecessary measures that threaten to take away what we love for no forseeable, legitimate gain. If you love your guns, please take some time and think about your reaction to "violent" video games (and sift the "facts") before you buy in to a rhetorical angle and end up negligently endangering someone else's sub-culture and beloved hobby.

 

[LockedBreech]

^ QFT. When I hear people talking about "these murder simulator video games" i hear it the exact same way I hear Diane Feinstein talking about "magazine clips". It's ignorance and blame-shift.

 

[Gaerek]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the effect of violent images on peoples behavior is undeniable.

This is what I have a problem with. Where is your proof that it's "undeniable?" That is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. Yet all you can provide is your opinion on it. That is not evidence, let alone proof.

This is the EXACT same argument Al Gore made about the human influence of Global Warming. Although I'm not arguing for or against this particular issue, he said that Human Caused Global Warming is undeniable, without showing much proof, and while hundreds of scientists were questioning this claim, with evidence of their own. And of course, he would refuse to debate any of these scientists because he believed his opinion was undeniable.

The problem is, it is YOUR opinion that violent images affect people's behavior. The actual science of it is inconclusive. If you are going to make the claim that your side of a controversial argument is "undeniable" you must be willing to provide PROOF (not just some evidence, not just a single study that seems to indicate, etc) of it. If you cannot do it, then it is simply your belief.

 

[Come and take it.]

because it can be observed easily by any person. You can run your own experiments of observation on yourself and determine that playing a first person shooter alters your thinking before and after game play.

It is about like a debate of determining if there is really a rock in front of you or that it is simply a 3d image and you are also a 3d image created by a hidden software program that is the universe we know.

In my opinion a rock is a rock.

But the industry cannot be regulated simply because the media lobby is far more powerful than the NRA. They can make claims of a violation of freedom of expression.

My argument against the violent media is that it incites violence. I grew up during the era when bugs bunny and the lone ranger turned into the chainsaw massacre and the Dawn of the Dead.

I gave a link in an earlier thread showing the research linking violent video games to violent behavior which of course in a debate will be discounted by the opposing side. However I provided a source but those who criticized the source never provided one of their own.

This is the report by the than surgeon general Jesse Seinfield

http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/NNBCGX.pdf

A short biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Leonard_Steinfeld

 

[Gaerek]

because it can be observed easily by any person.

Uhh, no it can't. I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know more (by probably a large margin) people who play violent video games. They're all normal, hard working people. None have any sort of violent tendencies. If this is what you mean by "observe" then I certainly have not observed it.

By the way, this is the same rebuttle that Al Gore used..."look, the temp is rising, everyone can see that!"

I grew up during the era when bugs bunny and the lone ranger turned into the chainsaw massacre and the Dawn of the Dead.

Strange then, how in today's society, some Bugs Bunny type cartoons are considered too violent. Some you won't even see aired anymore, and when they are on the air, it's usually during times of the day when kids aren't watching cartoons.

Once again, you're taking your opinions and biases and placing blame. Saying that it can be "observed." You have yet to show me where violent media incites violence. It can effect the type and means of violence, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO CASUAL LINK between violent video games and acts of violence. As a matter of fact, in the US, violent crime has been steadily decreasing since the late 80's...coinciding with the proliferation of violent video games, and the increase of violence in the media.

I wouldn't ever say that one causes the other, without proof, but it's certainly an interesting correlation.

Show me the proof! Quit spouting an opinion as fact.

 

[Mausermolt]

the FPS game makes people crazy and violent is very similar to the CCW or area's with lots of guns makes it more dangerous argument.

they say that violent videogames make people more aggressive and prone to act out in violence? one of the quotes above said that Call of Duty Black Ops 2 sold 13.2 million copies in the first week of sales? why arent there 13.2 million kids out there blowing up cars and gunning people down in the streets? same reason people make it out alive of a room filled with thousands of guns and 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition in gunshows!

humans are generally reasonable animals, they know if they walk out into the street with their AR and start making swiss cheese cars they are probably either going to get killed by the police or spend the rest of their life in jail. same thing if they walk into a gunshow and try to rob a dealer.....uuhhhhh, well we all know everyone in the room can easily neutralize that threat with something right next to them on the table.

my point being: dont infringe on other peoples rights just because you "think" what they are doing on there own free time can be "dangerous" and "cause serious damage"....because that is exactly what the anti gun people are doing to us.

Why do you NEED a AR-15?
why do you NEED a game where you shoot machine guns at people?
why do you NEED a car taht goes 150 mph?
why do you NEED a truck thats lifted and oversized tires for a daily commute?
why do you NEED a Iphone?
why do you NEED a Starbucks coffee every morning?

BECAUSE ITS MY RIGHTS AND FREEDOM THAT ALLOW ME TO!(sound familiar?)
so stop trying to take em away

 

[Beentown71]

the FPS game makes people crazy and violent is very similar to the CCW or area's with lots of guns makes it more dangerous argument.

they say that violent videogames make people more aggressive and prone to act out in violence? one of the quotes above said that Call of Duty Black Ops 2 sold 13.2 million copies in the first week of sales? why arent there 13.2 million kids out there blowing up cars and gunning people down in the streets? same reason people make it out alive of a room filled with thousands of guns and 10's of thousands of rounds of ammunition in gunshows!

humans are generally reasonable animals, they know if they walk out into the street with their AR and start making swiss cheese cars they are probably either going to get killed by the police or spend the rest of their life in jail. same thing if they walk into a gunshow and try to rob a dealer.....uuhhhhh, well we all know everyone in the room can easily neutralize that threat with something right next to them on the table.

my point being: dont infringe on other peoples rights just because you "think" what they are doing on there own free time can be "dangerous" and "cause serious damage"....because that is exactly what the anti gun people are doing to us.

Why do you NEED a AR-15?
why do you NEED a game where you shoot machine guns at people?
why do you NEED a car taht goes 150 mph?
why do you NEED a truck thats lifted and oversized tires for a daily commute?
why do you NEED a Iphone?
why do you NEED a Starbucks coffee every morning?

BECAUSE ITS MY RIGHTS AND FREEDOM THAT ALLOW ME TO!(sound familiar?)
so stop trying to take em away

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that FPS games should be banned. That doesn't mean that they don't have an effect on an already altered mind. CCW vs violent video games are nowhere near the same argument.

 

[JerryM]

A year or so ago I saw a TV program re such video games.
There was one kid, 8 years old, who was asked why he liked those games. His reply was, "Because I get to kill people."

There is a small percentage of people and kids who become desensitized to violence and killing as a result of such games bringing such things to mind, and especially when combined with movies, and the particular enviornment in which they grow up.
There are those who kill who would not without the violence in games, movies, TV combined with their environment.

I don't care if some here played them and did not do violence. Most won't, but I do not need a PhD study to make me KNOW from many years of observation that such things do impact on the think of some.

In my youth I/we never thought of such things, or killing our classmates or teachers. We had never been exposed to such thinking. How different it is now, and video games do have an impact.

Jerry

 

[LockedBreech]

In my youth I/we never thought of such things, or killing our classmates or teachers. We had never been exposed to such thinking. How different it is now, and video games do have an impact.

Except that isn't true. School shootings were a thing long, long before games became widely popular, even remotely realistic, or even existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

A small number of examples from that link:

The mid to late 1970s is considered the second most violent period in U.S. school history with a series of school shootings,

December 30, 1974: Olean, New York, Regents scholar Anthony Barbaro, 17, armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.

February 2, 1971: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Teacher Samson L. Freedman, 56, was shot to death as he left Morris E. Leeds School, by Kevin Simmons, 14. Freedman had suspended Simmons earlier in the day for cursing in the hallway.

For reference, the video game on store shelves in 1975 was Pong.

Or even earlier:

September 24, 1937: Toledo, Ohio, 12-year-old Robert Snyder shot and wounded his principal, June Mapes, in her office at Arlington public school when she declined his request to call a classmate. He then fled the school grounds and shot and wounded himself

May 4, 1956: Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School after he had been reprimanded from the school

Or waaaay earlier:

June 12, 1887: Cleveland, Tennessee, Will Guess went to the school and fatally shot Miss Irene Fann, his little sister's teacher, for whipping her the day before