Uvalde After Action Report

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bamaranger

New member
requesting permission to shoot

A glaring error that has jumped out at me is in the vicinity of the 11:33 time frame. Shots have been fired by the suspect, an officer with a rifle gets eyes on outside the school, and "asks his supv for permission to shoot" ?

What ever effected that offers indecision, be it unfamiliarity with agency and state use of force policy, lack of confidence in his own ability, there's discussion of an unsafe background....that hesitancy, that inablility to make the decision on his own, allowed the incident to continue. The shooter entered the school. I have no idea what the angles looked like,or the competency of the officer. The time frame was a matter of seconds and the dx was 148 yds. Hit or miss, a shot might have changed the outcome, or maybe not, .....but we'll never know.

Know the use of force policy and law for your circumstances, be it officer or citizen. Resolve the matter of the use of deadly force in your mind so that you can confidently and competently carry a firearm in public.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
There are many differences between us. Uvalde’s County, 26,000… the whole county sounds like a small town to me. My little city is 220,000 ad I consider it “not quite medium sized.”

To say that normalcy is 99% and this is “1% of the job” is false and misleading. 260 work days a year, cops respond to mass shootings 2.6 times a year? My sister was a cop for 5 years and never drew her weapon. This was a very rare event.

It’s easy to say, from the comfort of our keyboards, that anyone that doesn’t rush through a blind door, into an elementary school classroom full of kids, and a hostile shooter with an AR is a coward… well, raise your hand if you have ever blindly rushed a shooter with an AR. Perhaps you have, I have not.

In my opinion, this armchair quarterbacking ignores the main issue: children in other countries are far far less likely to be killed by gunfire. The solution is to not “it’s inevitable, how do we minimize it”. It’s “how do we prevent this from happening.”

Part of this is perspective. To me, a medium size city has more than the population of Montana. The whole state. Once you get your head around that, you start to see the problem.

From my perspective, a police officer is not a navy seal.
 
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Doc Intrepid

New member
stinkeypete said:
"In my opinion, this armchair quarterbacking ignores the main issue: children in other countries are far far less likely to be killed by gunfire. The solution is to not “it’s inevitable, how do we minimize it”. It’s “how do we prevent this from happening.”
Click to expand...

+1

It took the national shock of 9/11/2001 to initiate the founding of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA): "On the morning of September 11, 2001, nearly 3,000 people were killed in a series of coordinated terrorist attacks in New York, Pennsylvania and Virginia. The attacks resulted in the creation of the Transportation Security Administration, designed to prevent similar attacks in the future."

I've spent a career working with DOE to secure nuclear weapons and materials, both in the US and in other countries. Access control to nuclear materials and warheads in production is something which has evolved to very high levels over the past 40 years.

Those same physical security principles can protect schools and American students.

There will be those who will remark that in the wake of TSA's founding the process of boarding commercial aircraft has become more convoluted and time consuming. While true, literally tens of thousands of Americans go to work every day at DOE facilities nationwide that require strict access control into secured spaces and Limited Areas (LAs). The access control process can be designed to provide rapid flows to large numbers of students. It need not be so convoluted that it cannot be applied to schools.

Millions of flyers board aircraft in the US daily. The number of passengers bringing rifles on board with them is approximately zero. The technology and architecture exists to configure schools to achieve the same security. Retrofitting the physical security of public schools in the US would cost less than the last multi-billion package authorized for distribution to Ukraine.

If we have the technology, the designs, and the funding - what remains is the sociopolitical will to proceed.

The matter ought not to be left to police departments to solve, based on an assumption that such mass shootings are inevitable.
 
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TunnelRat

New member
stinkeypete said:
It’s easy to say, from the comfort of our keyboards, that anyone that doesn’t rush through a blind door, into an elementary school classroom full of kids, and a hostile shooter with an AR is a coward… well, raise your hand if you have ever blindly rushed a shooter with an AR. Perhaps you have, I have not.
Click to expand...

I think this argument is based on a false premise. It assumes that because an individual has not engaged in an activity personally that it is unreasonable to expect others to do so. I have never rushed into a burning building, yet firefighters will do so if a known occupant of a building is trapped. I have never gone out in a blizzard to search for lost hikers, but search and rescue will do it. I have never tried to pull a grown man or woman who is drowning out of a body of water, however lifeguards have. These situations involve the rescuer putting himself/herself in potentially serious jeopardy. Law enforcement is not the only career that involves personal risk. The reality is there are dangers associated with certain jobs that don’t exist in other occupations. It doesn’t make the actions any less heroic, but a person who voluntarily enters into a job should be realistic about the potential demands of that job.

I also want to circle back to the actual situation in question, because if we’re going to discuss what expectations are reasonable then we need to keep in mind the details. This wasn’t a situation where there was only one officer on the scene and that officer had to rush an attacker alone. In this situation literally hundreds of officers eventually arrived on scene. In just the leaked camera footage we can see tens of officers equipped in tactical gear waiting in the hall for over an hour while the attacker was left alone in the classroom. There was at least one parent on scene that tried to rush passed the police to do something herself, even though she was unarmed.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/17/law-enforcement-failure-uvalde-shooting-investigation/

https://youtu.be/_q7olC1LteE

If there is an argument that a goal should be to prevent this from happening in the first place, I completely agree. That goal is not mutually exclusive with recognizing the failures present during the response to this situation. The goal would be to make improvements in both areas.


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doofus47

New member
Uvalde brings me back to the first question I have for people who think that gun limits are a good thing:
"What if the gov't doesn't WANT to help you?"
 
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HiBC

New member
When I watched the footage of SWAT activity after Columbine ,from my civilian point of view, it looked like a bad parody. A bunch of black clad keystone cops running up and down in formation making "Hooo-Ah Hoo-ahh" noises while inside the building people are bleeding out and being executed by two coward punks.
SUPPOSEDLY what makes up for institutional failure is: Fund A Study ! Make up a committee! Observe the obvious. Lay the responsibility on something inanimate. (Policy,training, SUV's ,Guns,etc) and then have a press conference.

Whatever the conclusion, generally no one is held responsible, everybody keeps their job, but if you give us enough money, we'll try to make sure it does not happen again. Now,go back to sleep.

I've worked as a school custodian. You can write any policy you want, Students and teachers will prop doors open. Secure access ,metal detectors,etc,sound great. Its illusion.

Post Columbine, the "New Doctrine" supposedly is when there is an active shooter, apply the resources you have and take immediate action to stop the killing.
That MIGHT be as risky as jumping off a Huey at LZ X-ray , or taking a Huey back into LZ X-Ray. Or wading into Omaha Beach or heading back into the World Trade Center. Or backing up an "Officer Down" who needs help.

2007, New Life Church, Colorado Springs, congregation 7000... a homicidal nut with an AR-15, two handguns,and approx 1000 rounds in a backpack started killing on his way into the church and was shooting as he entered the building.

Former LEO Jeanne was armed volunteer security in the congregation. With her sidearm,she headed for the sound of the guns and put the killer down.

Thats the call. When Fate deals the cards, sometimes its YOU. Jeanne said it was Her and God. There is nobody else. The concept of "Call SWAT" is a way to avoid taking action.

It might be an excellent idea to call SWAT. EMS,too! You might get shot! But at least the killer will spend ammo on you instead of a kid.

Now,straight up, talk is cheap. I make no claim to being a courageous hero.

We never know till it happens, Any of us can be that one guy that stands up. Any of us can be that guy that waits for SWAT. Like 300+ others did.

Believe me,as a Custodian for an elementary school "What would I do" is a point I pondered.

What do you do? Bam. Dead kid. Seconds later,Bam,dead kid. Bam. Bam.

For the rest of my life I will have to look in the mirror. Bam. Bam..

For the rest of my life I will have to try to sleep. Bam Bam. I hear screaming.

I can wait for SWAT. No Command is telling me to go. Bam


I may have my history and details wrong,but maybe you will get the point.

When Crazy Horse confronted Custer, he said something like "Hoka Hey"

Or roughly,"Its a Good Day to Die"

If you search on youtube,"Little Big Man" there is a scene where Chief Dan George gives his Death Statement. "Its a good day to die"

On 9-11, on one plane,the passengers said "Lets Roll"

Of course, the plan is the bad guy goes down.

You can't make the ride if you don't get in the saddle. Bam. Bam.

Hoka Hey.

Ask the 300 plus Officers how they feel about doing nothing.
 
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mehavey

New member
Every decision is now questioned,
which leads to indecision.

Indecision gets people killed.
Every time.....
 
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thallub

New member
"Whatever the conclusion, generally no one is held responsible, everybody keeps their job, but if you give us enough money, we'll try to make sure it does not happen again. Now,go back to sleep."

Your post is the best i've ever read on the web.

i was working in the area when Columbine went down. Listened to the debacle on a police scanner.

91 Texas state troopers and Texas Rangers responded to Uvalde. Some had rank, none had the cajones to take charge and stop the massacre. None will lose their jobs:

https://www.khou.com/article/news/l...ting/285-5b4f51e6-4c7c-484b-9f73-ffcd2b78e73b
 
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mehavey

New member
Again...

....Every decision is now questioned,
....which leads to indecision.

....Indecision gets people killed.
....Every time.....

Cowards? More likely rats in a maze who have been previously and repeatedly shocked into shivering inaction.
 
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stinkeypete

New member
My eyes see a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here that have never burst through a door KNOWING a man with an assault rifle is holed up. Especially in the case where chain of command was garbled.

It’s not a cop’s job to commit suicide. One that acts like Rambo will certainly be the scape goat if it all goes horribly wrong.

You want simple solutions for a vastly complex social issue. Those solutions are wrong. It’s a difficult issue requiring complex solutions.

Just off the cuff.. the teachers all have had state wide security checks, had their finger prints taken and run against the national database, and international if they have been overseas. Well, that’s in Wisconsin. The young man? He filled out a 1 page checklist.
 
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TunnelRat

New member
stinkeypete said:
My eyes see a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here that have never burst through a door KNOWING a man with an assault rifle is holed up. Especially in the case where chain of command was garbled.

It’s not a cop’s job to commit suicide. One that acts like Rambo will certainly be the scape goat if it all goes horribly wrong.
Click to expand...

I don’t see anyone here asking a police officer to commit suicide. Meanwhile you continue to sidestep the facts of this particular case, including the number of officers on scene, the length of time the assailant was allowed to remain in the classroom without contestation, etc. Those details matter and they go to the reactions you see here.

As for the argument that we personally haven’t rushed an assailant with a semiautomatic rifle and therefore our opinions are invalid, you are ignoring that this incident was reviewed by other members of law enforcement and those law enforcement members are the ones who leveraged much of the criticism you see repeated here and in the report from the OP.

Over the years I have seen the “armchair quarterback” comment come up here periodically. Frankly, from my point of view to make that comment on the Tactics and Training sub forum misses in many if not most cases the point of this sub forum. There’s a time where you need to put emotion aside, be objective, and attempt to learn from a situation to hopefully improve the result later. Doing this has many names, one of which is an after action report, but it is done in many occupations and in my experience the people to which it is done are generally used to it happening as a function of their jobs. It seems to me that other people are bothered more than the people directly involved in the process, which I think is somewhat odd. There is a political sub forum to this overall forum, but this is not it. Here is for Tactics and Training and the responses are in that vein.


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Wag

New member
stinkeypete said:
My eyes see a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here that have never burst through a door KNOWING a man with an assault rifle is holed up. Especially in the case where chain of command was garbled.

It’s not a cop’s job to commit suicide. One that acts like Rambo will certainly be the scape goat if it all goes horribly wrong.

You want simple solutions for a vastly complex social issue. Those solutions are wrong. It’s a difficult issue requiring complex solutions.

Just off the cuff.. the teachers all have had state wide security checks, had their finger prints taken and run against the national database, and international if they have been overseas. Well, that’s in Wisconsin. The young man? He filled out a 1 page checklist.
Click to expand...

And yet, this post you just made is an armchair quarterback post itself. As if your sweeping judgement applies to everyone else on the forum.

It doesn't.

Our academy trained us to move in immediately. Solo, if we had to. How to move through the building toward the shooting.

Officers jump in on dangerous situations all the time. A DV call is dangerous. A shooter holed up in a house is dangerous. A drunk in a convenience store. ALL traffic stops are potentially deadly.

And yet, cops jump in on all of those all the time. I suppose people armchair QB those guys, too, saying that they should stay back.

Law enforcement at the level of the LEO is black and white. They don't get to walk away and let a bad guy walk. They are required to bring that person in.

If cops are standing around while a BG is shooting little kids in a school, damn right I'm going to judge them.

--Wag--
 
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wild cat mccane

New member
So training did nothing.

That was the bastion of the small group of people who want absolutely no control on firearms.

There are and should be consequences that this didn't work.

It also predicates itself on the fact that the police have to respond to murder at a school already occurring.
 
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Double Naught Spy

New member
stinkypete, it seems like you are okay with the cop's performance in Uvalde, which is really interesting because I have yet to find a cop who agrees with you. It is a cliche, but today's cops are taught to deal with this sort of situation and standing around cuffing parents and taking guns away from cops who do want to make entry does seem to be the realm of cowards. These people not only didn't do their jobs, but actively worked to keep other people from doing their jobs as cops and as parents.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/202...had-gun-taken-away-after-trying-to-save-wife/

The attitude of "We aren't going to do anything so we don't want anyone else making us look bad" is not how you build confidence with the community despite the really sexy and menacing FB pics of the Uvalde SWAT team bragging about how they are inspecting schools in case something like this happened. https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxd...bragged-about-training-at-schools-on-facebook

You have the Uvalde ISD Police chief on scene without a radio, issuing orders, telling people that it is a barricade situation (despite there still being shots inside) and telling officers not to make entry, then claiming he wasn't in charge. This guy used his authority (as so many cowards did that day) to keep people for helping children and teachers who were dying of survivable wounds if they got medical attention.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/22/us/uvalde-police-chief-administrative-leave.html

An NO, this is not Monday morning QBing. This is actual and documented history.

You really have to wonder why it took a federal Border Patrol SWAT team to make entry and why it was that district, local, and county cops could not handle the situation. The BORDER PATROL made entry. Not the SROs, not the local high speed low drag killer outfits Uvalde PD SWAT team, not the county deputies, not the Texas DPS, but a federal Border Patrol Team...and it wasn't their job, not a border issue.
 
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