Used the last of my Unique. Not getting more.

[Mike Irwin]

"Since when is Universal a ball powder? All the Universal I have is a flake powder."

Ball powder refers not to the shape of the powder granules, but the manufacturing process.

It was originally developed by Olin in the 1930s, and was first brought to market in the 1960s for handloaders.

The manufacturing process is faster than that for extruded powders like Unique.

 

[huntinaz]

If anything meters worse than Unique, it’s Herco and Green Dot and Blue Dot. I’ve not messed with 800x yet. But I do have some, from back when it was made by DuPont.

 

[Charlie98]

Propellants I have phased out:
Bullseye
HS-6
TiteGroup
Unique
W296

I've been working through mine... I finally dusted off the last of my RedDot, working on the TiteGroup now. I have a can of H110, that I use for full-house .41 loads, but with IMR4227, it's likely once it's gone, it'll be gone forever. W231 is also another I have eliminated from the bench... I just really don't have a use for it.

Rifle powders are another story. I was down to something like 3 rifle powders... now I have 8. Gads...

 

[Road_Clam]

For me :

45ACP = WST (again my ex-IPSA buddy gave me an almost full 8# Keg for free)

10mm = AA#9 (a handloaders wet dream as far as metering)

9mm / 40 S&W I've moved past Unique, and now loving AA#5

357 mag = H110

44 mag (Desert Eagle) = 2400

 

[300Whspr]

Ball powder refers not to the shape of the powder granules, but the manufacturing process.

It was originally developed by Olin in the 1930s, and was first brought to market in the 1960s for handloaders.

The manufacturing process is faster than that for extruded powders like Unique.

Do you have any documentation showing that Universal is maufactured by Olin's "ball powder" process?

Because, if it is manufactured by the ball process, it should look somewhat (or, exactly) like a ball powder.

But, all the "Clays" family of powders have the appearance and properties of an extruded flake powder, in my experience. I can find nothing that says they are "ball" powders.

Just curious where you got your information, I would be interested to see it.

 

[rclark]

If anything meters worse than Unique, it’s Herco and Green Dot

Well, my experience is quite different. While I run into problems once in awhile with Unique, Green Dot (or Red Dot or Blue Dot) has never presented a problem in my Hornady powder measure. In fact I use Green Dot as my goto load for .45 Colt and .357 now. Never have tried Herco ... yet. Every once in awhile I get the bug to do some load testing just for fun... So maybe down the road.


If 'Sevens' was near by, I'd pick up his Green Dot .

it should look somewhat (or, exactly) like a ball powder.

Not necessarily. There is 'flattened ball powder' that somewhat resembles flake. I can't find a technical reference (haven't looked that hard) that comes right out and says what Universal is though...

 

[603Country]

I’ve used Unique for decades. Bought some Universal and W231 in the last couple of years, and like them just fine. I use an old Lyman 55 for pistol ammo and when set up right, it throws Unique very well. I’ll keep using Unique.

 

[300Whspr]

I haven't had any issues dropping any of the Alliant (Hercules) powders through my 2 Uniflow measures. I've got one with the large drum and one set up with the small.

My Uniflow measures drop most any powder that they don't have to "cut", ie. large extruded tubular powders, very consistently. It is all in the way you operate the measure, it's all about consistency of your technique. If your technique is consistent, .1gr variation should be the rule rather than the exception. Of course, ball powders are even better than that.

Now, I haven't tried 800X in either of my 2 Uniflows yet... but I do have some in the cabinet. I'm curious to see how those big donuts behave.

 

[Crazy Carl]

I like the way Unique works in my .41 plinking loads, but not in warm loads & I really don't like how it meters.

I use W231 for .45 & am happy with it, but have bought some WSF to try in 9mm & .45, so when I'm out of Unique, I'll try some WSF for .41 plinkers.

I like 2400 for stiff loads in the .41 & had planned on using it in .357Mag as well, but I just loaded a bunch of .357Max with 4227 & depending on how it shoots, I may give it a try in the others.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Do you have any documentation showing that Universal is maufactured by Olin's "ball powder" process?"

At the moment, no. My original response was of more general terms than specifically about Universal. I should have been clearer.

I dashed off a quick e-mail to Hodgdon technical services this morning, though, and hopefully should have an answer next week.



"Because, if it is manufactured by the ball process, it should look somewhat (or, exactly) like a ball powder."

Not necessarily. Ball powders, especially handgun powders, are often flattened during the manufacturing process to alter the burning rate, giving them the appearance of an extruded flake powder.

WW 296 and WW 231 often appear to be extruded flake powders due to this flattening process.

Good example pictures can be seen here:

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62199.0

Enlarge the image on your monitor to see them more clearly.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I should add that I have used a lot of Red Dot in the past for 12 gauge light target loads. I really like it in that application.

I tried it in my .38 Special many years ago and it was god awful filthy. So bad that I quit using it.

Which is sad, because the loads were exceptionally accurate.

For rifle powders I generally use only IMR 4064, but I've not loaded rifle rounds in probably close to 20 years.

 

[300Whspr]

Mike, I don't know.

In the 35+ years I've been handloading, I've never had any difficulty discerning a ball powder from a flake powder. The two just do not look anything close to the same to my eyes. Maybe it's because I'm blessed with 20/15 vision... maybe it's just that I know what I'm looking for to tell the difference, I don't know. But to me it is easy to discern even a severely flattened ball powder like Win231 and WST from an extruded flake powder (take your pick of any...) Ball powders, after flattening, have irregular sizes and shapes of the individual granules, where extruded flake powders (which are really no different than extruded tubular powders except for the fact that the tubes are sometimes larger diameter and cut VERY short to make the flakes) are uniformly round at the edges, although there may be some rippling effect probably from the coating process that some of the powders receive.

I'm eager to hear what Hodgdon has to say. I haven't loaded any Universal in a few years, I may have to go back in my reloading room and take a look at what I have. But, I'm quite sure it is an extruded flake powder, with an unusual light tan color... I'm guessing that it does not have much graphite coating to give the usual dark color.

**EDIT**

I had to go down and look at my Universal, which was purchased in early 1997... the label is "Universal Clays", before Hodgdon shortened the name to "Universal". It is a dark gray powder... so I looked at my bottle of regular "Clays"... it is the lighter colored powder I was thinking of, although it is darker than I remembered... but, it is 1993 vintage (26 years old, DANG IT I'M GETTING OLD!!), so maybe it has darkened with age. But, it still smells good.

Anyway, I will be surprised to learn that Universal is a ball type powder... sure looks like a small grained flake to me. Maybe the newer vintage is... but my old stuff sure looks like a flake powder.f

Be sure to share what Hodgdon has to say, I'm definitely interested!

 

[bamaranger]

"old man powder"

One writer termed Unique as an "old man powder". Only us old guys use it, and we use it for about everything. I have always used very limited pistol powder, usually, 2400, Unique, and Bullseye.

 

[AVirginian]

I bought a pound of Unique, once, never again. They don't call it Flaming Dirt for nothing.

 

[Bubbau]

I've used Unique since the 70's and have had no issues other than metering +/- a few tenths which has not been a deal breaker since I don't load to max. I will most likely continue to use it along with Power Pistol for most of my pistol loads. Unique may end up being my reserve for when the next shortage pops up since Power Pistol meters more consistently for me.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I just stumbled across the National Center for Forensic Science's masater smokeless powder database...

Very interesting close up views of just about all of the smokeless powders that you can think of.

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders

I'm still searching for Universal. Not much organization in the list... Ah, the search button at the top of that page. It's not very intitutive, but you can search on a lot of different characteristics and parameters.

 

[Mike Irwin]

OK, the database cites Universal's powder shape as "disk."

That may or may not be indicative, but in the close up view of Universal Clays (as they identify it) it shows vertical striations of the kind that are seen when an extruded powder is cut to length as it comes out of the extruding die.

So, it's looking strongly that Universal may be an extruded powder.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"One writer termed Unique as an "old man powder". Only us old guys use it, and we use it for about everything. I have always used very limited pistol powder, usually, 2400, Unique, and Bullseye."

An interesting point about 2400, Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, etc., at least in the Hercules days...

They were all the EXACT same gunpowder formulation.

The differences in burning rates were controlled through size of the flake, thickness of the cut, and deterrent coatings.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I didn't even think of that. I bet TB would be a great choice for my Penn Bullet's 185 DEWC's. I'll give it a whirl this year. Also, I have 100gn DEWC's for 38 Special. TB would probably fit that bill well too."

I have a circa 1920-1926 5" S&W M&P in .38 Special. I use Trail Boss with 158-gr. SWCs as my primary load for it simply because I don't want to stress the old girl.

4 grains of Trail Boss develops (per the Hodgdon loading site) right around 750-800 fps., or right in the ballpark of the original black powder .38 Special load.

It's a dream to shoot, with virtually no recoil.

 

[Road_Clam]

If anything meters worse than Unique, it’s Herco and Green Dot and Blue Dot. I’ve not messed with 800x yet. But I do have some, from back when it was made by DuPont.

Don't bother. I bought 2# of 800X when I was first getting set up to load 10mm. What a NIGHTMARE powder to work with. Light flaky powder that meters horrible, and produces pretty significant extreme spreads for velocities. My remaining 1.99 lbs of 800X is now allocated for garden fertilizer !