The wife is due to go out to the range here sometime next week and requalify with both the M-16A2 and M-9 Beretta. Last time she missed getting her ribbon by just a few points and now she's out to get them come hell or high water. Now she wants to get to the range and work on it with my Beretta and AR-15 but she doesn't remember what all was involved the last time she tried to qualify. Anybody know off hand what the course of fire and what the time limits are for the USAF is?
USAF qualification course of fire?
- Thread starter USMCGrunt
- Start date
M9 course...
I'm an officer (aircrew), so they won't let me do the M-16 course. I've only done the M9. Three distances involved: 7 meters or yards, the medium distance escapes me and then 25 is last. I think to qualify (not the ribbon) you need 36 rounds on paper. For expert, you need all 36 on the target (person). I'm not sure about your wife's experience, but in the two times I've done this, they have never disqualified anyone for going over the time allotted. They will blow the whistle, but if you have a round or two left, they will allow you to finish. So I'd say consider slowing down a bit to collect your thoughts while squeezing off the last round or so and make it count.
I'm an officer (aircrew), so they won't let me do the M-16 course. I've only done the M9. Three distances involved: 7 meters or yards, the medium distance escapes me and then 25 is last. I think to qualify (not the ribbon) you need 36 rounds on paper. For expert, you need all 36 on the target (person). I'm not sure about your wife's experience, but in the two times I've done this, they have never disqualified anyone for going over the time allotted. They will blow the whistle, but if you have a round or two left, they will allow you to finish. So I'd say consider slowing down a bit to collect your thoughts while squeezing off the last round or so and make it count.
support_six
New member
Dang, the Air Force gives you a "ribbon" for qualification! All I got was a little metal pin-on thingy that said "Expert -- Rifle, Pistol". I would have qualified with the M60, M203, and the LAW but the ranges at A.P. Hill wouldn't certify non-combat arms officers (Quartermaster) for anything but the M16 and M1911/M9.
Bruce
Bruce
You don't get the Air Force Marksmanship Ribbon for merely qualifying.
You get a ribbon for qualifying expert in each of the weapons. So if you qualify expert in M16, you get the basic ribbon. If you qualify expert in M9, you get the basic ribbon. If you already have the ribbon for qualifying expert in the M16, and then qualify expert in the M9, then you get a cute little star device to attach to your ribbon. Same goes if you've already qualified expert on the M9 and then qualify expert on the M16.
You get a ribbon for qualifying expert in each of the weapons. So if you qualify expert in M16, you get the basic ribbon. If you qualify expert in M9, you get the basic ribbon. If you already have the ribbon for qualifying expert in the M16, and then qualify expert in the M9, then you get a cute little star device to attach to your ribbon. Same goes if you've already qualified expert on the M9 and then qualify expert on the M16.
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Hell! You mean they now let you shoot a gun? When I was in the AF (61-64) you got handed an M-2 carbine told to shoot 10 rounds and that was about it. Didn't fire another shot until I was in Korea when we had to requalify. Again, 10 rounds, this time on a 1,000 inch range. Times sure have changed.
Oh yeah, while in Korea, they gave a demonstration of the AR-15 (Now called the M-16). After the demo, those that wanted to try the gun out got to shoot three rounds apiece. We really got wonderful training on firearms back then. In my entire four years of service, I got to shoot exactly 23 rounds of live ammo for training. :barf:
Paul B.
Oh yeah, while in Korea, they gave a demonstration of the AR-15 (Now called the M-16). After the demo, those that wanted to try the gun out got to shoot three rounds apiece. We really got wonderful training on firearms back then. In my entire four years of service, I got to shoot exactly 23 rounds of live ammo for training. :barf:
Paul B.
Yup, they've been shooting (and qualifying) a lot more these days.
Part of the new AEF (Air Expeditionary Force) concept. Darned near every blue-suiter is basically on tap to deploy overseas, save for certain career fields, like Unix programmers. Figure that once you've graduated your tech school, you'll be put into a rotational system that gives you 120 or more days each year in a lovely 3rd-world hellhole, with a nice set of desert camouflage BDU's to show for it. (Can you tell I just finished my rotation?) So everybody who is eligible to deploy qualifies with either the M16 or M9 prior to their departure. Even the medics and nurses qualify with M9's, which I thought was a rather odd departure from the norm. But considering what (or who) we're dealing with over there, that departure may be the difference between a live medic/nurse and one who's severed head is dangling in the air on an Al-Jazeera newsfeed.
Part of the new AEF (Air Expeditionary Force) concept. Darned near every blue-suiter is basically on tap to deploy overseas, save for certain career fields, like Unix programmers. Figure that once you've graduated your tech school, you'll be put into a rotational system that gives you 120 or more days each year in a lovely 3rd-world hellhole, with a nice set of desert camouflage BDU's to show for it. (Can you tell I just finished my rotation?) So everybody who is eligible to deploy qualifies with either the M16 or M9 prior to their departure. Even the medics and nurses qualify with M9's, which I thought was a rather odd departure from the norm. But considering what (or who) we're dealing with over there, that departure may be the difference between a live medic/nurse and one who's severed head is dangling in the air on an Al-Jazeera newsfeed.
AF qualification
USMC,
Rifle course is 80 rounds fired at reduced multiple targets at 25M.
40 rounds practice and 40 for score. 4 positions: prone supported, prone unsupported, kneeling barricade, and over barricade (foxhole). For qual 10 rounds fired at 10 targets simulating ranges fro 50 - 300M. 10 shots fired in 90 sec from each position. Expert is 35 out of 40.
Work on basics (position, sight alignment/picture, breat control, trigger control, follow through) and smooth reloads.
M9 - 60 rounds. 24 practice/36 for qual. Fired at 7, 15, and 25M. 12 rounds fired by 2 shot strings in 8 sec from holster at 7M. At 15M, 3 shots reload and 3 more in 30 sec. Then 6 shots fired by 2's from rt. barricade, 8 sec per string. The the same from lt. barricade. Finally, at 25M, 3 shots from over barricade, kneeling reload, then 3 more in 30 sec. All shots should hit inside 10" vital zone which is marked in pencil so you can't see it.
expert is 30 in vital zone and all 36 on target.
good luck
USMC,
Rifle course is 80 rounds fired at reduced multiple targets at 25M.
40 rounds practice and 40 for score. 4 positions: prone supported, prone unsupported, kneeling barricade, and over barricade (foxhole). For qual 10 rounds fired at 10 targets simulating ranges fro 50 - 300M. 10 shots fired in 90 sec from each position. Expert is 35 out of 40.
Work on basics (position, sight alignment/picture, breat control, trigger control, follow through) and smooth reloads.
M9 - 60 rounds. 24 practice/36 for qual. Fired at 7, 15, and 25M. 12 rounds fired by 2 shot strings in 8 sec from holster at 7M. At 15M, 3 shots reload and 3 more in 30 sec. Then 6 shots fired by 2's from rt. barricade, 8 sec per string. The the same from lt. barricade. Finally, at 25M, 3 shots from over barricade, kneeling reload, then 3 more in 30 sec. All shots should hit inside 10" vital zone which is marked in pencil so you can't see it.
expert is 30 in vital zone and all 36 on target.
good luck
Yeah, you're not kidding. I've flown in "combat" four times in the last two years. We still only get to shoot the M-9 and still only once every two years. Surplus 9mm ammo must be getting pretty expensive these days eh?
One of my good friends saw the movie "Training Day" while overseas before a flight into bad guy land last year (we watch a lot of movies between sorties). There is a scene where the main character gives up his M-9 (92FS) to a bad guy to look at, but ejects the round and catches it in mid-air before hand. So, John decides to do the same when giving the M-9 back to life support after the sortie the next day. Except, the round ejects to the side and hits the airman collecting the pistolas (a she) right between the eyes. Henceforth his callsign became, you guessed it, "money shot".
I guess the "Children, don't try this at home" disclaimer can indeed be reinforced at this age.
One of my good friends saw the movie "Training Day" while overseas before a flight into bad guy land last year (we watch a lot of movies between sorties). There is a scene where the main character gives up his M-9 (92FS) to a bad guy to look at, but ejects the round and catches it in mid-air before hand. So, John decides to do the same when giving the M-9 back to life support after the sortie the next day. Except, the round ejects to the side and hits the airman collecting the pistolas (a she) right between the eyes. Henceforth his callsign became, you guessed it, "money shot".
I guess the "Children, don't try this at home" disclaimer can indeed be reinforced at this age.
I spent a total of 10 years in the military from the age of 17. First in the US Army, then the USAF and another tour in the US Army.
The firearms training except for basic was spotty at best and in the USAF almost non existant. My MOS was Ordnance and not in combat arms. In spite of the support role I have always thought that each soldier should be well trained in small arms.
During the first hitch in the army we fired the M1 rifle in basic. Also the .30 cal. MG. I pulled guard duty with an empty rifle and a fixed bayonet. later at APG I pulled guard duty with a M1 carbine with no range time. I pulled prison chaser using a 12 gauge shotgun after firing one round.
Once overseas in Germany I pulled guard duty with a M1 rifle and later a carbine. I eventually got some range experience with the carbine and we went out about three times over the 30 months I was there. Sometimes while on transport security I carried a .45 pistol, a carbine or "grease" gun. I never fired either "officialy." I lobbied to the PTB about range training but was told that we were "support". I bought a 1911 .45 pistol and a .22 rifle. I went to the range with a couple of other guys with personal firearms and we practiced. Eventually I bought a Browning P-35 in 9mm and a P-38. For two years I continued to practice more with my personal firearms than I ever did with my assigned carbine.
After staying out 8 months and trying a couple of jobs that did not work out I decided to enter the military again. I joined the USAF. I took my .45 pistol and Browning P-35 to Amarillo AFB where I was assigned for a tech school. I was the only guy in tech school with two personal handguns. At Amarillo there was no time or place to practice, transportation being a major factor. After training I was sent to Clark AFB in the PI. I was assigned to a support unit of the 405th Fighter Wing. During alerts we were assigned to guard the POL tanks from potential sabotage. Since I was the only one with infantry training I was made a radio operator and had to instruct the NCO's on the way to secure the perimiter. I do not remember going to the range with the carbine during my 18 months. I did go to the range with my handguns though. I was the only enlisted person with his own arsenal in my unit. Again I lobbied with the PTB to be allowed to get in some range time. It was a waste of time since we were not a part of the air police squadron and our job was the suppoert of the fighter wing with parts and POL.
In Montana I was in a support unit for B-52 Bombers. Due to my previous army experience and work in the PI with the security of our unit I was pegged to work with the Air Police Augmentation Team. We actually went to the range. I discovered that even the AP personel were sadly lacking in proper arms training. Guys would point loaded carbines every which way. It was only when I got on the case of the NCOIC at the range that this stopped. I still had my two handguns and went to practice with them with a roommate that had a firearm. The augmentees would be sent on guard duty during alerts with a M2 carbine, and 10 rounds in a magazine. The ammo was taped to the carbine stock and woe to the guy that ripped off the tape, unless enemy paratroopers were landing on the airfield! I carried a hunting knife to use to cut the tape in case of need. Again we had no additional training in arms and no one seemed to care. I practiced on my own as usual.
During my last two years in the USAF I had gotten married and become a parent. Upon discharge I went to Oregon and tried again to find gainful employment. I found a job that turned out to be a bust and after applying through the state employment office as well as other places in town I was getting desparate. I had a wife and a child and one that would be born in about 6 months! President Kennedy was killed in November and I went down and re-enlisted. My wife and I had discussed our options and while she was not overly enthusiastic she agreed that we needed something to happen right away.
At Fort Ord I took a basic training test and range qualification with a M1 rifle. I made expert and was being processed for an assignment. I was trying to get a job there at Fort Ord and was trying out for MPCI, regular MP's, chaplains assistant, anything to stay in the states and get my family with me. It seems that EUSA was calling. (EUSA=Korea) after a short trip back home I got ready for the trip to Korea. I had a Savage 24 in .22 LR/.410 gauge as well as a .22 Ruger pistol. I got to Korea and after a few days found myself on a mountain top missile site. I was the only enlisted person with firearms again and I am sure that certain people took notice. I was assigned a M14 rifle which I had to take to the mountain missile site each day. I spent quite a bit of time practicing with my rifle and pistol and doing my work of trying to get the missile supply parts up to date.
We went to the range twice during my tour there. We were all allowed to fire the M2 MG with one round! I was getting more practice on my own than with army training. We carried a .45 pistol or M14 rifle on posts. After two break-ins on posts where the sentry only carried a pistol, I wrote up a letter to the CO and suggested that we dump the pistol in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun with fixed bayonet. That was adopted and our "slicky boy" problem came to a halt. I never let on that it was my suggestion, because the other guys hated to carry the much bulkier and heavier shotgun instead of the .45.
In order to get more firearms training I suggested we set up a battery reile team. The idea was accepted and I tried out and was about to get a berth on the rifle team. The CWO I worked for told me that if I went on the team I would no longer be assigned in my regular job. I had a good job and it was very upsetting to be told that I had to choose between the rifle team and my MOS job. My time was op soon enough and I headed for Ft. Riley in Kansas, I was being assigned to a tamk battalion in the Big Red One. We were a support company that was in a tank unit. Everyone had to qualify with the rifle and .45 pistol. I created quite a stir when I started firing on the pistol course, but that is another story and this is too long already.
During additional rifle training we went out in the rain and fired at interactive targets on the KD course. Everybody but me was bitching about having to fire in the rain. I told the other guys that this could save their lives if they paid attention. I even joined the "aggressor" team to get some infantry ambush experience. I ended up volunteering for Vietnam to see what was going on there. This was late in 1965. I finally got tagged to go with an Ordnance unit attached to the first brigade. We trained in stationery landing craft and other things and went to Vietnam by ship. (USS Gen. Mann)
I took a personal .38 Special with me and kept it hidden securely throughout the train ride, ship voyage and two weeks of prepping for the forward base. Down the road we had a general amnesty for "illegal" firearms and in order to keeep the pistol I had to turn in in after registration. It was about 30 days or so later the confiscation took place. Before the confiscation I also bought a M3A1 SMG (grease gun) and carried it and later placed it in a hidden spot in case of need. we did not even get enough rifle training in Vietnam! When I lobbied I was told again that if I wanted to become an infantry soldier it could be arranged.
During one crazy afternoon of sniper fire at chow time our Co ordered us all to unload our rifles and put our ammo in our belt pouches. The first sgt. was the bearer of the order. I refused and told the first sgt. to tell the CO that while we were under enemy fire, I would not disarm. About 15 minutes later my lieutenamt crept over near where I was and asked if I was till carrying a loaded rifle. I replied that I was and that he should be also. He said no, the CO wanted everyone to disarm and place their rifles on safe. I told him that the CO was wrong and we were under enemy fire and should remain ready. The lieutenant asked what it waould take to get my compliance? He than answered the question by saying "A direct order?" I thought for a moment and said yes, a direct order. He said that he had never given one before and I said well I had never had one given to me either. He drew himself up about a quarter of an inch and ordered me to unload my rifle and place it on safe. I did so and threw the rifle down and informed the lieutenant that I would use my mess kit to smack anuone that came through the wire. He gave me a wierd look and took off. Nothing was said by the PTB and other soldiers told me later that they wised thay had the guts to dtand up to the CO when he gave that order.
After my time was up and I went home I quit the military afyer nearly 1o years. I have never regretted it and eventally took a federal job where I carried a firearm and later taught their use.
If any of you have sons, brothers, daughters or friends in the military or about to join, do them a favor. Get them to a range and make sure they understand the use of a rifle and pistol. I realize that my experience was not the usual perhaps, but when I think of the outfit that PFC Jessica Lynch was in and their lack of knowledge of firearms I do not want to see any repeat performances.
If you are an officer and are stuck with using a pistol, take it upon yourself to get someone to assist you with some rifle training. In Vietnam I pulled many hours behind a M2 MG that was 25 feet up in a treehouse, and I never once was allowed to fire it. I knew the proper procedure but was never given the opportunity to try it out. I did fire my full auto M14 and my grease gun but no crew served weapons.
Sorry for the long rant but the lack of proper small arms training in the military has been on my mind for a long time.
The firearms training except for basic was spotty at best and in the USAF almost non existant. My MOS was Ordnance and not in combat arms. In spite of the support role I have always thought that each soldier should be well trained in small arms.
During the first hitch in the army we fired the M1 rifle in basic. Also the .30 cal. MG. I pulled guard duty with an empty rifle and a fixed bayonet. later at APG I pulled guard duty with a M1 carbine with no range time. I pulled prison chaser using a 12 gauge shotgun after firing one round.
Once overseas in Germany I pulled guard duty with a M1 rifle and later a carbine. I eventually got some range experience with the carbine and we went out about three times over the 30 months I was there. Sometimes while on transport security I carried a .45 pistol, a carbine or "grease" gun. I never fired either "officialy." I lobbied to the PTB about range training but was told that we were "support". I bought a 1911 .45 pistol and a .22 rifle. I went to the range with a couple of other guys with personal firearms and we practiced. Eventually I bought a Browning P-35 in 9mm and a P-38. For two years I continued to practice more with my personal firearms than I ever did with my assigned carbine.
After staying out 8 months and trying a couple of jobs that did not work out I decided to enter the military again. I joined the USAF. I took my .45 pistol and Browning P-35 to Amarillo AFB where I was assigned for a tech school. I was the only guy in tech school with two personal handguns. At Amarillo there was no time or place to practice, transportation being a major factor. After training I was sent to Clark AFB in the PI. I was assigned to a support unit of the 405th Fighter Wing. During alerts we were assigned to guard the POL tanks from potential sabotage. Since I was the only one with infantry training I was made a radio operator and had to instruct the NCO's on the way to secure the perimiter. I do not remember going to the range with the carbine during my 18 months. I did go to the range with my handguns though. I was the only enlisted person with his own arsenal in my unit. Again I lobbied with the PTB to be allowed to get in some range time. It was a waste of time since we were not a part of the air police squadron and our job was the suppoert of the fighter wing with parts and POL.
In Montana I was in a support unit for B-52 Bombers. Due to my previous army experience and work in the PI with the security of our unit I was pegged to work with the Air Police Augmentation Team. We actually went to the range. I discovered that even the AP personel were sadly lacking in proper arms training. Guys would point loaded carbines every which way. It was only when I got on the case of the NCOIC at the range that this stopped. I still had my two handguns and went to practice with them with a roommate that had a firearm. The augmentees would be sent on guard duty during alerts with a M2 carbine, and 10 rounds in a magazine. The ammo was taped to the carbine stock and woe to the guy that ripped off the tape, unless enemy paratroopers were landing on the airfield! I carried a hunting knife to use to cut the tape in case of need. Again we had no additional training in arms and no one seemed to care. I practiced on my own as usual.
During my last two years in the USAF I had gotten married and become a parent. Upon discharge I went to Oregon and tried again to find gainful employment. I found a job that turned out to be a bust and after applying through the state employment office as well as other places in town I was getting desparate. I had a wife and a child and one that would be born in about 6 months! President Kennedy was killed in November and I went down and re-enlisted. My wife and I had discussed our options and while she was not overly enthusiastic she agreed that we needed something to happen right away.
At Fort Ord I took a basic training test and range qualification with a M1 rifle. I made expert and was being processed for an assignment. I was trying to get a job there at Fort Ord and was trying out for MPCI, regular MP's, chaplains assistant, anything to stay in the states and get my family with me. It seems that EUSA was calling. (EUSA=Korea) after a short trip back home I got ready for the trip to Korea. I had a Savage 24 in .22 LR/.410 gauge as well as a .22 Ruger pistol. I got to Korea and after a few days found myself on a mountain top missile site. I was the only enlisted person with firearms again and I am sure that certain people took notice. I was assigned a M14 rifle which I had to take to the mountain missile site each day. I spent quite a bit of time practicing with my rifle and pistol and doing my work of trying to get the missile supply parts up to date.
We went to the range twice during my tour there. We were all allowed to fire the M2 MG with one round! I was getting more practice on my own than with army training. We carried a .45 pistol or M14 rifle on posts. After two break-ins on posts where the sentry only carried a pistol, I wrote up a letter to the CO and suggested that we dump the pistol in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun with fixed bayonet. That was adopted and our "slicky boy" problem came to a halt. I never let on that it was my suggestion, because the other guys hated to carry the much bulkier and heavier shotgun instead of the .45.
In order to get more firearms training I suggested we set up a battery reile team. The idea was accepted and I tried out and was about to get a berth on the rifle team. The CWO I worked for told me that if I went on the team I would no longer be assigned in my regular job. I had a good job and it was very upsetting to be told that I had to choose between the rifle team and my MOS job. My time was op soon enough and I headed for Ft. Riley in Kansas, I was being assigned to a tamk battalion in the Big Red One. We were a support company that was in a tank unit. Everyone had to qualify with the rifle and .45 pistol. I created quite a stir when I started firing on the pistol course, but that is another story and this is too long already.
During additional rifle training we went out in the rain and fired at interactive targets on the KD course. Everybody but me was bitching about having to fire in the rain. I told the other guys that this could save their lives if they paid attention. I even joined the "aggressor" team to get some infantry ambush experience. I ended up volunteering for Vietnam to see what was going on there. This was late in 1965. I finally got tagged to go with an Ordnance unit attached to the first brigade. We trained in stationery landing craft and other things and went to Vietnam by ship. (USS Gen. Mann)
I took a personal .38 Special with me and kept it hidden securely throughout the train ride, ship voyage and two weeks of prepping for the forward base. Down the road we had a general amnesty for "illegal" firearms and in order to keeep the pistol I had to turn in in after registration. It was about 30 days or so later the confiscation took place. Before the confiscation I also bought a M3A1 SMG (grease gun) and carried it and later placed it in a hidden spot in case of need. we did not even get enough rifle training in Vietnam! When I lobbied I was told again that if I wanted to become an infantry soldier it could be arranged.
During one crazy afternoon of sniper fire at chow time our Co ordered us all to unload our rifles and put our ammo in our belt pouches. The first sgt. was the bearer of the order. I refused and told the first sgt. to tell the CO that while we were under enemy fire, I would not disarm. About 15 minutes later my lieutenamt crept over near where I was and asked if I was till carrying a loaded rifle. I replied that I was and that he should be also. He said no, the CO wanted everyone to disarm and place their rifles on safe. I told him that the CO was wrong and we were under enemy fire and should remain ready. The lieutenant asked what it waould take to get my compliance? He than answered the question by saying "A direct order?" I thought for a moment and said yes, a direct order. He said that he had never given one before and I said well I had never had one given to me either. He drew himself up about a quarter of an inch and ordered me to unload my rifle and place it on safe. I did so and threw the rifle down and informed the lieutenant that I would use my mess kit to smack anuone that came through the wire. He gave me a wierd look and took off. Nothing was said by the PTB and other soldiers told me later that they wised thay had the guts to dtand up to the CO when he gave that order.
After my time was up and I went home I quit the military afyer nearly 1o years. I have never regretted it and eventally took a federal job where I carried a firearm and later taught their use.
If any of you have sons, brothers, daughters or friends in the military or about to join, do them a favor. Get them to a range and make sure they understand the use of a rifle and pistol. I realize that my experience was not the usual perhaps, but when I think of the outfit that PFC Jessica Lynch was in and their lack of knowledge of firearms I do not want to see any repeat performances.
If you are an officer and are stuck with using a pistol, take it upon yourself to get someone to assist you with some rifle training. In Vietnam I pulled many hours behind a M2 MG that was 25 feet up in a treehouse, and I never once was allowed to fire it. I knew the proper procedure but was never given the opportunity to try it out. I did fire my full auto M14 and my grease gun but no crew served weapons.
Sorry for the long rant but the lack of proper small arms training in the military has been on my mind for a long time.
support_six
New member
Phil Ca, I would not say the small amount of "official" military arms training you received was typical. I was also in a "service support" branch (Quartermaster) for 23 years. I fired the qualifiication course with the M16, M1911A1, and M9 and familiarized annually with them. I also fired familiarization courses with the M60 MG, M2B , M203, M72 LAW (the subcaliber device is wimpy but a full up "green with yellow markings" war shot is a kick), and of all things in 1978, the M3 submachinegun (they were still the crew weapon for the M88 recovery vehicle in my maintenance company). I even fired the 90mm recoiless rifle once! Having supported armor most of my career also gave me the opportunity to turn loose the 105mm main gun on the M60 series tanks a few times.
As a former company commander, I can tell you the level of weapons training in a unit is in direct proportion to the sense of urgency felt by it's leadership. Sure, sometimes the training dollars were tight and we only fired familiarization tables rather than qualification tables, but we fired every year! A unit that does not practice in peacetime what it might have to do in wartime is going to lose some people unnecessarily. We did a lot less "rock painting" than most units because we were constantly doing meaningful training (weapons, NBC, first aid, etc.).
Bruce
As a former company commander, I can tell you the level of weapons training in a unit is in direct proportion to the sense of urgency felt by it's leadership. Sure, sometimes the training dollars were tight and we only fired familiarization tables rather than qualification tables, but we fired every year! A unit that does not practice in peacetime what it might have to do in wartime is going to lose some people unnecessarily. We did a lot less "rock painting" than most units because we were constantly doing meaningful training (weapons, NBC, first aid, etc.).
Bruce
Mattd,
Sorry to hear about your experience at the class...in my class any rounds that aren't fired without a legit alibi are taken! Hopefullt USMC Grunt's spouse get's some good coaching during the practice portion.
Funny how this stuff is all of a sudden important to everybody. I've had many students that expressed the idea that weapons training was not needed since they would never "carry it on duty"
My how times change
Sorry to hear about your experience at the class...in my class any rounds that aren't fired without a legit alibi are taken! Hopefullt USMC Grunt's spouse get's some good coaching during the practice portion.
Funny how this stuff is all of a sudden important to everybody. I've had many students that expressed the idea that weapons training was not needed since they would never "carry it on duty"
My how times change
Yeah, thanks guys, I think I'm doing a fairly decent job of getting her up to speed on small arms. When we were first dating, she didn't know anything about ripping apart an M-16 until I had her practice on my AR-15 for a while. Turns out they only had one afternoon in boot camp to fire a weapon and learn all the ins and outs of the M-16A2 service rifle. I keep trying to tell myself that they have a different mission than the Marine Corps infantry I did my time in but when I see piss-poor training they get, I firmly believe that the Care Force is one Tet offensive away from filling body bags from now till Christmas! I have one buddy of mine here that's a cop and he was telling me that they had one female cop here on the base last month that tried to load her mag into her M-16 backwards! And these are the folks that are supposed to have gotten better firearms training than your average Careman? Look, I know this ain't the Corps (well, actually, that's pretty obvious) but what do we have to do, stamp "POINTY END FORWARD" on the side of every magazine? It's really a sad situation IMHO.
I keep trying to tell myself that they have a different mission than the Marine Corps infantry I did my time in but when I see piss-poor training they get, I firmly believe that the Care Force is one Tet offensive away from filling body bags from now till Christmas! I have one buddy of mine here that's a cop and he was telling me that they had one female cop here on the base last month that tried to load her mag into her M-16 backwards! And these are the folks that are supposed to have gotten better firearms training than your average Careman? Look, I know this ain't the Corps (well, actually, that's pretty obvious) but what do we have to do, stamp "POINTY END FORWARD" on the side of every magazine? It's really a sad situation IMHO. USMC Grunt,
I gave you all the info you asked for and what did you do...insult the USAF.
I'll share an experience with you. Once upon a time the Navy Security folks were using our range and they brought along a GYSGT to help with the M16 training. He didn't even know how to set the elevation knob for 25M firing. The worst part was he didn't want any help from the "Careforce" Instructors. As to her Basic training experience with the weapon. That class lasts 4 hours and then it's off to the range for two hours of firing. Is that long enough? No, but like YOU said, we aren't training infantry.
Here's another good one, we put on an interservice rifle and pistol match, open to anyone from any branch of service. USMC participants too, but sorry to say none of them even placed against the poor USAF.
And finally, I used to get thos ecool Navy safety bulletins every month, paying particular attention to the weapons mishaps, maybe you know the ones with all the anecdotal stories of Marines and Navy personnel screwing up with weapons...Good fodder for teaching examples!
I agree with your assessment that better training is always needed, but I don't care for your assumption that all USAF training should be as in-depth as the Marines. Just like I don't think the Marines should have to do things the AF way. Let me know if you want to share some other interesting stories.
God Bless the Corps
I gave you all the info you asked for and what did you do...insult the USAF.
I'll share an experience with you. Once upon a time the Navy Security folks were using our range and they brought along a GYSGT to help with the M16 training. He didn't even know how to set the elevation knob for 25M firing. The worst part was he didn't want any help from the "Careforce" Instructors. As to her Basic training experience with the weapon. That class lasts 4 hours and then it's off to the range for two hours of firing. Is that long enough? No, but like YOU said, we aren't training infantry.
Here's another good one, we put on an interservice rifle and pistol match, open to anyone from any branch of service. USMC participants too, but sorry to say none of them even placed against the poor USAF.
And finally, I used to get thos ecool Navy safety bulletins every month, paying particular attention to the weapons mishaps, maybe you know the ones with all the anecdotal stories of Marines and Navy personnel screwing up with weapons...Good fodder for teaching examples!
I agree with your assessment that better training is always needed, but I don't care for your assumption that all USAF training should be as in-depth as the Marines. Just like I don't think the Marines should have to do things the AF way. Let me know if you want to share some other interesting stories.
God Bless the Corps
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I'm not trying to insult the Air Force as a whole, but I do call a spade a spade when it comes to small arms training. It does burn my bottom though that I see folks here take it so lightly because they have a "real job" and they think they'll never have to really know how to handle a weapon. I had an uncle that was a cook with Patton's 3rd army in 1945 that told me that this was the same sort of thinking they had back in those days, "I'm a cook, why would I need to have much training with a rifle?" Well then along came the German offensive that became known as the Battle of the Bulge and guess what, he was out there with a rifle too! If it's true that those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, there will come a day that this too will be repeated and weather they are ready or not, trained or not or if fighting is there job or not, they're going to be forced into that situation. It irks me to no end that the Air Force in general and my wife in particular are going to put into that situation without the propper training needed to survive such an encounter. Now I'm not saying that all Airmen are doofus' around firearms and I'm not saying that every Marine is a top-notch shooter, there are always exceptions. However, if you look at a random sampling of your average Airmen, even you'd have to admit that their training falls far short of what is needed to best take care of those airmen that some day do find themselves in their own Battle of the Bulge.
USMC,
Some true points, but unlike the Marines who I hear spend about two weeks of Bootcamp learning the finer points of the rifle, and by the nature of their mission place a higher priority on small arms training, the Air Force is all about flying and fighting. I think current events are going to change that corporate mindset (I hope).
The other issue is folks who show up for class and they complain about having to be there. I've heard it a thousand times. So they don't take it seriously because they think they will never need it just like Chem Warfare or Self Aid and Buddy Care. When your wife get's back from her qualifications, ask her how serious the folks in her class were.
Qusetion for you; in what condition do Marines carry their weapons when armed (rifle and pistol)?
PS - is there anything else you want to know about the qual courses?
Some true points, but unlike the Marines who I hear spend about two weeks of Bootcamp learning the finer points of the rifle, and by the nature of their mission place a higher priority on small arms training, the Air Force is all about flying and fighting. I think current events are going to change that corporate mindset (I hope).
The other issue is folks who show up for class and they complain about having to be there. I've heard it a thousand times. So they don't take it seriously because they think they will never need it just like Chem Warfare or Self Aid and Buddy Care. When your wife get's back from her qualifications, ask her how serious the folks in her class were.
Qusetion for you; in what condition do Marines carry their weapons when armed (rifle and pistol)?
PS - is there anything else you want to know about the qual courses?
myopicmouse
New member
Oh come now, this is the military, you can swindle whatever you want, ever see Bilko?
crate of beer....problem solved...When I recerted a few months ago, it was pretty much the same as in Basic, except that we actually got to take the gun apart and clean it. I guess we were too pressed for time to do that in Basic. The theory, I believe, is that we would be evacuated while the army and SPs fight. Thus, only in a true SHTF situation would we have guns, and so they just make sure that we know how to point and click. Incidently, the cert depends on what job you have. To stay certified as a 2w1, I just need to get 10 out of 40 rounds on target . EOD, bare-basers, etc. get more training, as they are far more likely to need the gun.
. EOD, bare-basers, etc. get more training, as they are far more likely to need the gun.This is disgusting. Looking at the USAF posts on this thread, I fired WAY more than all of you combined in just 4 years of peacetime Army in the mid 70s.
That's not a slam on you guys - it's the fault of the corporate mindset of the Blue Boys. :barf:
Exactly right, Phil. If you put on a U.S. military uniform, you had better be ready to be a SOLDIER, and I don't care if your job is UNIX sysadmin or cook.
Try it with no ear plugs!
Better yet, DON'T!
That's not a slam on you guys - it's the fault of the corporate mindset of the Blue Boys. :barf:
Exactly right, Phil. If you put on a U.S. military uniform, you had better be ready to be a SOLDIER, and I don't care if your job is UNIX sysadmin or cook.
Try it with no ear plugs!
Better yet, DON'T!