US Army Awards M4/M4A1 Contract to Remington

[tirod]

Remington will likely have some of the same inspectors who monitored the inhouse processes, parts shipped in, their testing to conformance, and paperwork that documents that the TDP is completely in conformance.

In other words, the same oversight Colt has been putting up with for decades. As each part is put together, it has to meet standard - measured and tested. All the weapons in the lot have to meet standard - 2 MOA, tested and measured. And the government final inspection standards will be met to the letter because too many people have good jobs with great pay to be the lead man in a scapegoat hunt by Congress looking for who screwed the pooch on the M4.

Does that mean a Remington you can buy will be any different? Hopefully so, but be very sure, the 6920 wasn't milspec, and you can't show me a lot inspection package that proves it. Never could.

Whether the Remington or Colt is "superior" and "Tier One" will be moot, the best thing to come out of it will be complete boredom as Remington's just launch bullets no different than another Colt in the rack. We really don't need Brandinistas bragging over which is better, what we need is good training to use them better.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"This is also a boon for Remington which has been fighting (some would argue weakly-supported) allegations of faulty designs and a disregard for public safety from the television network NBC."

LOL, notice the boon isn't coming from one of their own designs.

Guess we now know why Colt ARs have been showing up in spades in Wal Marts.

I think this has a lot more to do with Walmart than Colt.

 

[PH/CIB]

Ditto on Cerberus...It is not often what is the best you can buy, but what will get by,,, and about corruption,,,who you know,,, and who you are,,, and how powerful your connections in politics and industry are...and how much money can be made and who all gets it.

Ditto on the rifle platform and the caliber,,,it has been said there is just not a rifle platform and caliber that is that much better to warrant the expense and trouble of the change.

It is funny to me anyway,,how many guys seem to look at Mil Spec as the gold standard or the best there is,,,while I look at Mil Spec as the baseline,,, if you look hard enough and are willing to spend more money you can almost always find something better or much better in the civilian world,,, whether it be boots, socks, BDU'S, rucksacks or packs, rifles, ammo etc...except for DARPA science fiction today hi tech products where there is no civilian counterpart,,,you can probably almost always find something better than Mil Spec,,,however it probably would not be practical to spend the extra money on something better if Mil Spec gets the job done.

 

[RT]

Mil-spec is a baseline, but Cerebrus currently does not produce anything that meets this minimum.

 

[Technosavant]

It is funny to me anyway,,how many guys seem to look at Mil Spec as the gold standard or the best there is,,,while I look at Mil Spec as the baseline,,, if you look hard enough and are willing to spend more money you can almost always find something better or much better in the civilian world

Mil-Spec is a useful baseline. Just because it is a baseline doesn't mean it's of no use... I'd rather have a rifle that conforms to the TDP as closely as possible rather than a cheap budget plinker. Still, as you say, there's things not in the TDP that are indeed superior for one reason or another... I have a Bravo Company BFH lightweight upper- hammer forged rifling isn't part of the TDP, but it is superior. Ditto the midlength gas system- not part of the TDP since the TDP specifies a 14.5" barrel, but for a regular 16" barrel, it's preferable.

I also chuckle when I see people say "the mil spec stuff doesn't matter one bit." Well, sometimes it does... I'd rather have a HP/MPI bolt made of Carpenter 158 steel than one that was made of a cheaper grade and only batch tested.

The key is always to know what you are buying and why you are buying it. You aren't going to get something "just as good as" the high end stuff at half the price. Then again, at some point the Law of Diminishing Returns does kick in. Some things are worth the money, some things are just spending cash for no actual value at all. Know what you need, know what you're buying, and don't feel the need to justify your rifle alongside others if your needs and budget didn't allow the higher end stuff.

 

[Mrgunsngear]

FN still makes the M16A2s. I used to go to the factory inspect the production of them for work at my last job. They were fighting for this contract as well but apparently didn't land it.

 

[5RWill]

Mil-Spec is a useful baseline. Just because it is a baseline doesn't mean it's of no use... I'd rather have a rifle that conforms to the TDP as closely as possible rather than a cheap budget plinker. Still, as you say, there's things not in the TDP that are indeed superior for one reason or another... I have a Bravo Company BFH lightweight upper- hammer forged rifling isn't part of the TDP, but it is superior. Ditto the midlength gas system- not part of the TDP since the TDP specifies a 14.5" barrel, but for a regular 16" barrel, it's preferable.

I also chuckle when I see people say "the mil spec stuff doesn't matter one bit." Well, sometimes it does... I'd rather have a HP/MPI bolt made of Carpenter 158 steel than one that was made of a cheaper grade and only batch tested.

The key is always to know what you are buying and why you are buying it. You aren't going to get something "just as good as" the high end stuff at half the price. Then again, at some point the Law of Diminishing Returns does kick in. Some things are worth the money, some things are just spending cash for no actual value at all. Know what you need, know what you're buying, and don't feel the need to justify your rifle alongside others if your needs and budget didn't allow the higher end stuff.

Well said thankyou.

 

[Crow Hunter]

I would reserve any comments about this until they are ACTUALLY producing the guns.

Sabre Defence and Bushmaster both won contract awards in the past. Neither of them were capable of producing the rifles to the TDP specification at the cost they quoted.

When the production lines are actually set up and running and DOD inspectors sign off on their suitability, then I will be impressed.

Any company is CAPABLE of building rifles at or better than the quality of Colts. However, most companies CHOOSE not to.

Unless you have the economies of scale that Colt has, it will be difficult to produce their quality level at their price point.

Find the addresses of the companies and take a look at the aerial view of their factories, you might be surprised how small some of them are and how large Colt is.

Cerberus probably has the resources to do it, but that doesn't mean that they will sell that to civilians.

Colt is in a "unique" position in that civilian/LEO sales are such a small part of their overall business plan that it is cheaper/easier for them to just divert a little of their "normal" production and change out a few parts rather than buying and keeping up with civilian grade components and the quality systems needed to prevent them from getting mixed into DOD weapons and potentially having to reject whole shipments of weapons.

Most of the other companies are organized completely backwards to this. They are primarily civilian producers that may or may not make "LEO" models. They build to a civilian price point for civilian users and for their "special" customers, they have "special" runs.

Based on Cerberus's organization and Remington's current "LEO" policies on their 870P/700P/etc vs their Express lines, I wouldn't count on getting "Tier 1" quality ARs from DPMS/Bushmaster/Remington at your local Wal-Mart.

With our luck, this will wind up changing Colt's business model too and all us lowly civilians will get is crap.

 

[tirod]

Valid point, the final product has to be accepted and issued.

As for Colt's economies of scale, they didn't even forge the platters, just bought them from outside the company and machined them to finish. Remington having the TDP handed to them means they know specific final dimensions, etc, and will really be in the same boat as GM Hydramatic or H&R. They just keep tweaking the processes until the Inspector says "good to go."

Those subcontractors supplying Colt with parts will likely change just one thing - the ship to address. No reason to expect a sudden change in that stuff, don't kill the golden goose, boys. That includes the anodizers - that was done out of house, too, IIRC.

Money alone doesn't win bids, you have to have answers to questions, and that means depth in management, production, and having alternate resources to get product to ship on time. They simply had more right answers.

Just another chapter in the closing days of a venerable platform. I suspect a shuttle bolt ACR firing LSAT ammo is much more the next gen weapon. But that's still a few years off, and the Battalion level tests of hundreds of weapons have yet to sort things out.

I would really like to know who made those guns - that's a huge indicator of who might supply the next generation.

 

[Crow Hunter]

As for Colt's economies of scale, they didn't even forge the platters, just bought them from outside the company and machined them to finish. Remington having the TDP handed to them means they know specific final dimensions, etc, and will really be in the same boat as GM Hydramatic or H&R. They just keep tweaking the processes until the Inspector says "good to go."

They do just assemble a large number of their components, but they have the employees and floor space, jigs/fixtures and what parts they do produce in house to run many thousands of rifles a month.

Remington will have to either build this new or retool/retrain another facility to do this, and do it without the organizational "tribal" knowledge that is available to Colt. Having retool many many production lines in my career, it is a significant and costly undertaking and that was just retooling to make similar parts for customers that we were familiar with.

I was referring to the economies of scale at Colt to the purchase of "Tier 1" rifles for civilians. BCM and others can make those same rifles but they will cost more than Colt because when Colt buys components, they buy in BULK rather than the relatively small quantities that the high end builders and I am sure they get a significant quantity discount.

Just another chapter in the closing days of a venerable platform. I suspect a shuttle bolt ACR firing LSAT ammo is much more the next gen weapon. But that's still a few years off, and the Battalion level tests of hundreds of weapons have yet to sort things out.

I would really like to know who made those guns - that's a huge indicator of who might supply the next generation.

I agree, it will be interesting to see what the "next generation" will be. Of course, it could also be another SALVO project.

 

[loose_holster_dan]

wish wally world still stocked guns around me. i haven't seen a gun for sale in a wally world for 12+yrs, let alone an assault rifle. i'm just glad they still sell ammo.