Up close 'n' personal

[longhair]

"i know this isn't really the right thread for this, so please forgive me" mr. black, you're right. the government is taking more of our rights away everyday. it's
causing people who are normally law abiding
citizens to become outlaws, having to sneak a knife on a plane, etc.(glad i don't fly) it's a damn shame
that almost anything we do today can be against the law one way or another. it's begining to sound kinda like a police state.
i skirted the line of law and order in my day, that was by choice. now it's by necessity.

[This message has been edited by longhair (edited 10-28-98).]

 

[Spectre]

Kodiak, I would personally, after doing everything reasonably (per Sun Tzu, who advised that winning the battles without fighting was the mark of the great leaders) to avoid conflict, use lethal force immediately...except for the fact that our legal system is SO screwed, that I would rather take a little more risk initially-risking death or serious injury- and lessening my chance of dying a lingering death after downing my first three attackers and being raped by the other twelve in prison. The percentage of HIV-infected inmates is incredible, and those are only the ones who test positive. (FYI- the HIV virus cannot currently be detected in the body. The HIV test is actually testing for antibodies your body puts out to fight HIV. It can be up to 10 years before the HIV goes active and your body starts to combat it.)

 

[Kodiac]

WHOA Spectre - I wasn't advocating galloping straight off to the far end of the "Use of Force" spectrum...
That would be awfully messy if I killed every one I tusseld with... would have killed more people than the plague...

 

[Spectre]

Perhaps I overspoke, Kodiac. What I meant was, if I felt my life was in danger, (after doing my best to avoid dangerous situations, not escalate, etc) I would use lethal force immediately-EXCEPT for the current "PC" environment that may not take kindly to my having shot the individual who demanded my money in the alley. With the political situation as it stands, I am willing to face more immediate risk because I am SCARED TO DEATH of my skinny, boyish little white *ss going to jail.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 10-28-98).]

 

[Rob Pincus]

okay, I noticed this new Forum when I got back from Texas and managed to sit it out for 48 hours, BUT, kodiac.. The Plague?? that is bold my man.

CQC should be quick and brutal. I don't think any of us want to get into a greco-roman wrestling match with Bubba Badguy down at the honky-tonk. But Knives to me are one tiny baby step on the polite side of guns. Personally, I'd rather face the average punk with a gun than someone who knows how to use a knife. I know that a lot of you carry both a knife and a gun regularly, but I can't really think of a scenario where I would use the knife but not use the gun.
If I've got a knife and a gun, the knife is a tool, the gun is my defense. If a problem can be dealt with by the quick use of a grapple, push, pull, twist, or strike, great! Easier for everyone involved, but if it comes to weapon play, its the gun everytime. Knives are messy. Knife fighting is arguably harder to learn that unarmed techniques though. I'd rather spend the time training on gaining time/distance to draw and use a firearm.

Does anyone know cases where use of a knife has been considered less than lethal force?

If the situation is one where you can only carry a knife, then that is the situation.

As far as California goes, I was once pulled out of car at gunpoint during a routine traffice stop because the officer on the right side of the car noticed the clip of a SpyderCo on the outside of my jeans pocket. The knife had a 1.5" blade and I had specifically bought it *Because* I was going to be in southern California for an extended period of time. I still got hassled. It went from "why were you speeding" to.. "Get out of the car slowly, keep your hands where I can see them...". Then their search of my wallet turned up my valid CCW permits from other states, which made things worse instead of better. They became obsessed with the wherabouts of my handguns. They couldn't grasp that they could've been 1500 miles aways and I would still be carrying the permits.
Personally, I know that I never would've been
bothered if I'd've had a PPK in an IWB holster under my jacket. (or if I hadn't been speeding

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Rob-
I used to carry a Seecamp (New York reload). At a knife class with one of our lurkers and Hilton, I was asked the circumstances and distances under which I'd use the Seecamp. By the end of the weekend, I'd replaced the Seecamp with a fixed blade, deeming it more effective for the required task(s). YMMV

In a crowded room, handgun rounds can be a real liability; even at conversational distances. Up close and personal, the handgun remains an anemic fight stopper compared to a good fighting knife, utility knife or kitchen knife, in the right hands.

You've alluded to it yourself. Who poses the greatest risk to you at arm's length? The guy with the .38 special or the guy with the fighting knife.
Rich

 

[Kodiac]

I was once stopped on the free way by VA state troopers. I was doing 5 MPH over and the troop was passing me. He must have read the "PEOPLE SUCK" sticker I had on the bumper and the HK logo on the rear window... He hit the breaks - got behind me and hit his party lights.
I had been out of LE for a month then...
He pulled me over, had me put my hands on the hood... and asked if I would consent to a search of my car.
I said "No"
He got bent out of shape and tried to explain to me how unpleasent it would be if I didn't reconsider letting him search.
I asked him to articulate his probable cause as to why he thinks an NRA instructor would have illegal guns or drugs in his car. I hadn't told him who I was, and that I helped this trooper on a search six months prior - he didn't recognize me. Then he saw on the floor of my passenger side... a Shotgun News. He asked if I was in a Militia. I said I WAS the Militia.
The poor guy about lost blood to his brain - it was all sticken out in his viens.
He called back up.
Two other units arrived... The saw me and told the first trooper who I was... Number 1 then got in his car and stewed. for awhile. I had words with the other troopers... and then the first gau came back "Sign this - you know where."
Sucker wrote me for the FIVE OVER...
Can't believe it - he wrote me... for +5... after branding me a threat to humanity.

It got thrown out because he had forgot to give me my pink copy... I didn't remind him either.

 

[Rob Pincus]

The crowded room deal is one reason that I mentioned the HTH training to get into a position to draw and use a weapon. I had to worry about this a lot during a period of time, I chose to carry a .380 with Blasers and train in CQC techniques, conciously focusing on the fact that the gun may not be an option, or require a change in position or closing of distance, even inside a room, before it could be safely employed.

All the good knife training I have recieved has been basically an extension of HTH skills. These same skills without the knife can be used to end a conflict or buy time to use a firearm. That is my preference, as long as I have the choice to carry and use the firearm.

I once got into an argument with a ticket counter employee over the fact that I could kill her with almost everything on her desk (long story.. I'll tell ya sometime... meanwhile, don't try this at your local airport..). That doesn't mean I want to carry a ball point pen or a telephone cord instead of my Glock.

 

[HS]

KODIAC, ha ha ha ha ha, GRIN ! Hey, can I get the video of your offense ? Or better yet, submit it to Americas Funniest Video.

Back to U.C.A.P (new acronym !) Has the use of a Kubuton been accepted as a QCQ tool ? The're all the rage in our club. An innocuous bit of wood on your key ring with the ability to cause great pain and suffering if used correctly and not a metal detector hazard ! Just a thought....HS

 

[Kodiac]

A mini mag lite works well as a kubuton, and in an officers weapon load he will have one or another thing like it, cuffs (yes you can use them as a weapon - if you dont know, I can't tell you), cheical spray (10% Pepper Foam is my favorite), a baton of some sort side handle, expanding ( ASP ), a full sized light - Mag or Stream etc., edged weapons, leather sap (If you don't - try one... they are fun), various backup guns, duty gun, and then the trunk-gun or what ever you call your patrols long gun - of whatever type it is.
There are a lot of weapons an officer has... and there are situations for ALL of them. And he should train with ALL of them.

A citizen on the other hand has his Spyderco Clipit and his Glock 19...

 

[Rob Pincus]

Cuffs are great...

 

[HS]

Rob, cuffs? Beating someone senseless with the bottom part of your trousers would seem impractical !...grin

...HS

 

[fal308]

HS Maybe he uses a lot of starch

 

[Rob Pincus]

The chinese guy who owns the cleaners told me it was an ancient secret. Lots of starch and hit them with your shin! (I recommend shin pads when you first start training..)

 

[Kodiac]

Rob! SSSHHH! You were not supposed to tell!

 

[Kodiac]

Some one E-mailed me a good idea to consider... they didnt want to post it - but I think it is a great idea, so I will post it - You can claim it if you want:

Big steel ball bearings. They can be thrown most effectively. And the always hit pointy side first.

If your wearing a jacket open on a breazy day, you put them in your jacket pockets and it will keep the jacket weighted down - helping to conceal that Glock 10MM on your hip.

It is worth consideration.
Ever throw a big bearing? They hit hard... and against a human - would probably do more damage than throwing your Spyderco unless you grew up in a circus and can throw and stick knives at will. I sure can't.
I'ld rather take a guy at distance than up close. But up close - in your hand its as good as a roll of quarters.

 

[Mark Cook]

Regarding Kodiac's comment about a "citizen with his SpyderCo Clipit and Glock 19", that's pretty durn close but not enough.

My regular carry is the SpyderCo Endura clipped in my left front pocket (I'm ambi: I knife-fight with my left and shoot right eye/right hand), my Glock 23 in my beltpack, and...

...keep an ASP kubotan (w/ the concealed pepper sprayer built-in) on my keychain. This makes the keychain a *serious* non-lethal weapon. With the pepper spray for distance, and the kubotan and keys-as-flail for up close, I have more self-defense options than most. It makes the 7-11 parking lot at 3AM feel a lot less creepy! :^)

Regards,

- Mark C.
Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
Front Sight First Family member #1

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Phone: 541-753-2732 Fax: 541-753-2738 http://www.ssgfx.com
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[HS]

Kodiac et al. Imagine this scene: Big tough guy is sittin' in his prison cell, all the scum are talkin' 'bout how they come to be there. He has to relate how some guy " Balled" him to submission. Guess who's gonna be the "wife" in that cell ! ha ha ha ha ....HS

 

[Spectre]

Even more explainable to interested LEO is a baseball...and, be careful where you throw your ball bearings. I can't find any of mine...

 

[Rob Pincus]

True story:

I was pulled over in NJ (do you sense a recurring theme, yet?) and when I opened my glove compartment the "officer" (summer cop in a shore town...) asked my to remove the "metal object." It was the key to the lock-lug on my wheels. He claimed that becuase of its wieght it was consider a weapon in NJ and I should keep it locked in the trunk. Then a sergeant showed up and told him he was basically a complete freakin idiot and to tell me to have a good evening.

AND, if I was carrying around big steel balls my wife would definitely wonder what I was up to.