Unregistered AK-47s brought back from Vietnam?
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some refinement of the question
Aren't there two elements to a crime?
Actus reas which is the physical act of the crime.
Mens reas which is the mental state during the commission of the crime.
In most crimes, there must be a concurrence of actus reas and mens reas to establish that a criminal act has been committed. Certain low level crimes don't require a mens reas and criminal guilt is established by statute. For instance, sexual intercourse with a minor who stated they were of age and produced (unbeknownst to the accused) phony identification.
So, the question now is, is someone like our widow who unknowingly possess a NFA weapon liable as posed by the question? Must there be concurrence of actus reas and mens reas?
Aren't there two elements to a crime?
Actus reas which is the physical act of the crime.
Mens reas which is the mental state during the commission of the crime.
In most crimes, there must be a concurrence of actus reas and mens reas to establish that a criminal act has been committed. Certain low level crimes don't require a mens reas and criminal guilt is established by statute. For instance, sexual intercourse with a minor who stated they were of age and produced (unbeknownst to the accused) phony identification.
So, the question now is, is someone like our widow who unknowingly possess a NFA weapon liable as posed by the question? Must there be concurrence of actus reas and mens reas?
TheGoldenState
New member
BOOOO! noone likes a tattle tale
for the record if i ever found a Full Auto from grandpa (he already passed and left two hangugns from the war, no FA) i would represent the "thou shall shuttith thoust mouth" rule
Wildalaska
Moderator
And for the record that makes you a felon and unfit to own a firearm.
WildthisthreadneedsclosureAlaska ™©2002-2010
TheGoldenState
New member
No it WOULD make me a felon-i am not. And definitely very fit
FoxtrotRomeo
New member
I'm saying that if I want to see the 2nd Amendment followed to the letter AND enjoy it, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The wrong way is the "courthouse steps" thing. The right way is to elect the right people that will do what needs to be done through the checks and balances.
The problem is that the criminals have bunkered themselves into position of power to persecute those who wish to breathe free.
And don't make that kind of a statement either. I'm not the person you need to politically hang for "flip flop" statements. I don't have the luxury of a big wordy vocabulary or word usage to properly express how I feel so don't come after me, go after the wizards of words in Washington.
Blagojevich - extortion
Clinton - extortion / sexual harrassment/ exploitation
Gore - fraud
Claude Allen - shoplifting
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - lied to federal investigators and fraudulantly made political contributions using identity theft
Janet Reno - mass murder
Sandy Berger - caught stealing classified papaers.
Yeah - I think FoxtrotRomeo makes a valid point - the above are just "tip of the iceberg" examples.
play nice, children.....
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, advocating someone violate Federal law (particularly on this internet forum) is a spectactularly stupid thing to do.
You could get tossed off the board, or worse, you just might be considered as conspiring to violate Fed firearms law. Sure, that's extreme, but we seem to be living in extreme times, especially concerning full auto firearms.
Currently, the law has NO provision allowing legal registration and ownership of "discovered" full auto guns. None. Period. The only legal option is surrendering the gun to the Feds. And, I would recommend do such through a lawyer, just to cya.
Advocating ANYTHING else (no matter how we all feel) is advocating violating the law, and that is not allowed here, period.
This is my only warning, next time anybody says "just toss it in the lake" or "shut up about it and keep it hidden", this one is done, and maybe the poster, as well!
Not Joking!
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, advocating someone violate Federal law (particularly on this internet forum) is a spectactularly stupid thing to do.
You could get tossed off the board, or worse, you just might be considered as conspiring to violate Fed firearms law. Sure, that's extreme, but we seem to be living in extreme times, especially concerning full auto firearms.
Currently, the law has NO provision allowing legal registration and ownership of "discovered" full auto guns. None. Period. The only legal option is surrendering the gun to the Feds. And, I would recommend do such through a lawyer, just to cya.
Advocating ANYTHING else (no matter how we all feel) is advocating violating the law, and that is not allowed here, period.
This is my only warning, next time anybody says "just toss it in the lake" or "shut up about it and keep it hidden", this one is done, and maybe the poster, as well!
Not Joking!
M4Sherman said:
Jim Keenan said:
What if, instead of doing what M4Sherman suggests, you strip the receiver, do a lawyer-mediated hand-off of the illegal receiver and any other illegal components to the BATFE, then keep the rest. That avoids the whole destruction-of-evidence problem, doesn't it? At least then someone would benefit from the upper and other parts. Either you could build a new semi AK, or you could sell the parts.
I wonder though if there's legal precedent for arguing that destruction of an item which is illegal per-se cannot be considered destruction of evidence. I would expect case law on this in the area of drugs... who has been prosecuted for flushing drugs down the toilet (prior to a raid, not during...), and have those prosecutions stuck?
Okay, completely leaving aside the fact that only half your list is remotely accurate... what's your point? That some people in politics commit crimes, and therefore there's an overarching massive conspiracy to oppress the public?
Again, the conspiracy theories make people sound like nuts.
My unit captured a lot of AK's and a few SK's. No one was allowed to bring an AK home, but a few lucky guys got an SK after a paperwork approval process.
So, anyone who brought back an AK had to have done so illegally. I am not sure how they could have unless they had a good buddy with access to a military aircraft making flights back to the US from Nam. I guess anything is possible, and I guess some of the CIA might have done so.
So, anyone who brought back an AK had to have done so illegally. I am not sure how they could have unless they had a good buddy with access to a military aircraft making flights back to the US from Nam. I guess anything is possible, and I guess some of the CIA might have done so.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Without looking it up, it may fall under Misprision of Felony under 18 USC 4.
WildlovethoseoldcrimesAlaska ™©2002-2010
Stevie-Ray
New member
Many years ago, I was offered an M16 for $250. I asked if it was legally registered and of course the answer was no. Needless to say, I didn't want any part of it. Don't even know if the offer was real, but I doubted he'd offer up something he didn't have.
Not certain, but I highly doubt it...
For many, many years, the ATF has operated under the premise that "once a machine gun, always a machine gun". The only exception was a gun that they declared legally "dewat".
So, as long as the receiver is intact and functional, no matter what parts are with it, it is a machine gun under the law.
Posessing the unregisterable, illegal gun long enough to "convert" it is a crime.
There is no legal way out. None. The instant you lay hands on the hypothetical full auto bringback AK, you are guilty of a crime. It CANNOT be made legal under existing law. The only option is immediate surrender to the Feds (or any other law agency), and hope they do not prosecute. They can legally prosecute you. And they can convict you. Usually, they will not prosecute, as your voluntary surrender (as soon as you know what it is) is taken as a show of good faith that you had no intent to break the law. Delay in surrendering the gun is usually taken as the opposite. And then, they are much more inclined to prosecute.
The 1986 Hughes Amendment closed the civilian Full auto registry. NO gun, no matter how rare or historically significant may be registered to a private individual after May 19th 1986. None.
There is a possibilty that a historically significant gun might be allowed to be registered to an agency or organization that already posesses the correct license, but only if the ATF approved it. And they are under to compunction to do so.
There was a case not too long ago where a WWII bomber was recovered from a lake, with its machine guns onboard. The museum that was recovering the plane wanted the guns, too (they were non functional after years under water) and the ATF fought them on it. I don't remember how it finally turned out, but I think the ATF allowed the museum to have the guns, but only after they were officially "dewatted". This case was, I believe, one govt sponsored group (museum) arguing with another (ATF), so a compromised was allowed. If it had been a private group or individual, I think the ATF would not have been so ....flexible.
In short, the hypothetical "discovered" bring back AK is a fed felony, just by its mere existance. ANYONE who posesses it is guilty. Even a licensed NFA collector cannot legally posess the gun, or register it.
A licensed NFA dealer might be able to register the gun, for future transfer ONLY to law enforcement agancies or the US govt (that registry is not closed), HOWEVER, posession of the AK, unregistered is still a crime, and no NFA dealer is likely to risk this Catch-22. I think the ATF would take a dim view of this, even if it was legally possible, and I'm not certain it is.
For many, many years, the ATF has operated under the premise that "once a machine gun, always a machine gun". The only exception was a gun that they declared legally "dewat".
So, as long as the receiver is intact and functional, no matter what parts are with it, it is a machine gun under the law.
Posessing the unregisterable, illegal gun long enough to "convert" it is a crime.
There is no legal way out. None. The instant you lay hands on the hypothetical full auto bringback AK, you are guilty of a crime. It CANNOT be made legal under existing law. The only option is immediate surrender to the Feds (or any other law agency), and hope they do not prosecute. They can legally prosecute you. And they can convict you. Usually, they will not prosecute, as your voluntary surrender (as soon as you know what it is) is taken as a show of good faith that you had no intent to break the law. Delay in surrendering the gun is usually taken as the opposite. And then, they are much more inclined to prosecute.
The 1986 Hughes Amendment closed the civilian Full auto registry. NO gun, no matter how rare or historically significant may be registered to a private individual after May 19th 1986. None.
There is a possibilty that a historically significant gun might be allowed to be registered to an agency or organization that already posesses the correct license, but only if the ATF approved it. And they are under to compunction to do so.
There was a case not too long ago where a WWII bomber was recovered from a lake, with its machine guns onboard. The museum that was recovering the plane wanted the guns, too (they were non functional after years under water) and the ATF fought them on it. I don't remember how it finally turned out, but I think the ATF allowed the museum to have the guns, but only after they were officially "dewatted". This case was, I believe, one govt sponsored group (museum) arguing with another (ATF), so a compromised was allowed. If it had been a private group or individual, I think the ATF would not have been so ....flexible.
In short, the hypothetical "discovered" bring back AK is a fed felony, just by its mere existance. ANYONE who posesses it is guilty. Even a licensed NFA collector cannot legally posess the gun, or register it.
A licensed NFA dealer might be able to register the gun, for future transfer ONLY to law enforcement agancies or the US govt (that registry is not closed), HOWEVER, posession of the AK, unregistered is still a crime, and no NFA dealer is likely to risk this Catch-22. I think the ATF would take a dim view of this, even if it was legally possible, and I'm not certain it is.
JT-AR-MG42
New member
Lamar,
I know what you mean on the bringbacks. Higher ups were really down on the AKs. A buddy who was a member of the yacht club over there told me that it was made REAL clear beforehand by the Captain (shipping out time) that anyone caught with an AK was going down hard.
Just think of how hard they would come down on the kids returning nowadays with anything, not just full autos. Leavenworth time most likely. Heck of a way to say thanks, huh?
I do know of two Chinese AKs brought back though. One was a Type 56 and the other was a Type 22? export model. Both were brought back by two different civilians (who did not know each other) working off ships servicing the war effort. The guys hid them onboard, made it home, and luckily believed the amnesty and got them registered.
The G.I. did not have that luxury.
JT
I know what you mean on the bringbacks. Higher ups were really down on the AKs. A buddy who was a member of the yacht club over there told me that it was made REAL clear beforehand by the Captain (shipping out time) that anyone caught with an AK was going down hard.
Just think of how hard they would come down on the kids returning nowadays with anything, not just full autos. Leavenworth time most likely. Heck of a way to say thanks, huh?
I do know of two Chinese AKs brought back though. One was a Type 56 and the other was a Type 22? export model. Both were brought back by two different civilians (who did not know each other) working off ships servicing the war effort. The guys hid them onboard, made it home, and luckily believed the amnesty and got them registered.
The G.I. did not have that luxury.
JT
Shortly after Saigon fell, I was attending community college, and there were quite a few Vietnam vets I became friends with. I heard several stories about AK's and other weapons having been smuggled home. It was not nearly so difficult to smuggle things from VietNam as it would be to smuggle things home from Afghanistan today. In fact, it is pretty well known that there were drug pipelines full of heroin, thai stick pot and opium coming to the US in those days using all manner of military transport. It would not have been too difficult to include a kalashnikov or two in those shipments...
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