Universal Background Checks....

AH.74

Moderator
They could be made to enforce the laws.


Is this all you can do, keep retorting with one-liners? Nothing anyone says will make any difference to you, will it?

How do you just "make" them enforce the laws? If they won't or can't enforce THESE EXISTING laws, how can they enforce new laws on top of those?

Does this make any sense to you? Or are you just going to keep on disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?
 

NWPilgrim

New member
People so in favor of universal background checks should lead by example and get themselves re-checked annually for all your guns. Not needed for you, you say because you are law abiding and will not commit violent crime with them? Hypocrites. Either set the example you want to foist on everyone or keep quiet.

I have never met a person adamant about taxes or laws that is willing to subject themselves to a higher standard as an example. They either are not affected by said law/tax or don't feel it applies to them, just others.

Lots of sound reasoning why UBC do not work, and how they erode liberties, yet a couple of guys are so insistent this is needed. Here is a clue: If you actually own any guns it us purely by the efforts of those before you that resisted such incremental infringement laws. If people such as yourselves wrote the Bill of Rights and had majority congressional control then none if use would be owning the guns today we enjoy and rely upon.

You act as parasites enjoying the liberty to own guns but actively working to undermine that very right. Make no mistake, there is no such thing as "reasonable gun laws". Gun grabbers have repeatedly stated they are merely steps toward elimination of all guns.

Your obstinate support of more gun laws expose you as either a naive tool, hypocrite or subversive plant.
 

manta49

New member
How do you just "make" them enforce the laws? If they won't or can't enforce THESE EXISTING laws, how can they enforce new laws on top of those?

Of Course they can enforce the laws. The either don't have the resources or they are choosing not to.

I am not saying there should be any more laws or they should be enforcing the current laws.
What i am saying is that is that this notion that its beyond the American government agencies to enforce the laws if they wanted to is mistaken.


So the fact that they don't enforce some laws at the present does not follow that they couldn't in the future.
There are plenty of arguments and reasons why further gun controls should not be introduced. But the government not having the capability to so if they wanted is a poor one.
 

mrbatchelor

New member
>manta49: "They could be made to enforce the laws. "

>2ndsojourn: That's fine. But until they start doing that, it's useless to pile on more laws that are impossible to enforce.

We have an untrustworthy nephew (the government) who we think is trying to steal our jewelry (our rights), and currently has a key to the garage in order to mow the lawn (FFL transfers).

He complains that he cannot mow the lawn without a key to the main house (UBC), and manta thinks that's exactly what he needs. However, once the jewelry is gone, it's gone for good.
 

AH.74

Moderator
What i am saying is that is that this notion that its beyond the American government agencies to enforce the laws if they wanted to is mistaken.


There are plenty of arguments and reasons why further gun controls should not be introduced. But the government not having the capability to so if they wanted is a poor one.

I don't think anyone has said either of these things. I think you're creating something to argue against.

But it doesn't change the fact that there is no real purpose to passing new laws if the ones in existence are not being enforced.
 

gc70

New member
Spats McGee said:
UBCs create a hurdle to ownership, not possession.

I believe some current proposals for background checks do create a hurdle for possession. The background checks proposed in H.R.21 and S.150 both address "transfers" rather than just sales and both bills have specific exceptions for "a temporary transfer of possession" under limited conditions.
 

Ghost1958

Moderator
Most Americans do believe in the Constitution and what it stands for and guarantees when they are made to understand it.

There are times I question some responses I see here and other gun forums that are a minority but nothing I expected to see from professed 2a supporters and gun owners.

This is sort of hard to say, but I think a good number of our own are going to hurt us more than the antis ever could pull off by themselves with their willingness to be illegally regulated on a right that specifically states its not to be infringed.

Heres some facts for you. The first gun regulation ever passed accomplished nothing it was supposed to accomplish.
None to date have ever accomplished anything but make Good folks less able to defend against criminals and goverment.
None passed in the future will do anything more that the past ones did.

If some can show me where gun regs have reduced gun crime instead of causing it to rise where any particular one was tried in the U.S. please do. Old or new. Any takers?
 

Skans

Active member
If some can show me where gun regs have reduced gun crime instead of causing it to rise where any particular one was tried in the U.S. please do. Old or new. Any takers?

I'll take a Nation of a relatively few one-off dumb criminals, even if they commit murders now and then, over a Nation of a few well organized Tyrants controlling millions of servants and the entire national wealth and resources. In other words, I consider the issue of crime statistics irrelevant to the bigger picture.....and the more dangerous well organized criminals propped up by a corrupt government.
 

arch308

New member
What is there about "shall not be infringed" that people can't understand? I for one won't stand by and watch my 2nd Amendment rights being whittled away while subversives are allowed to burn American flags and Gays are allowed to parade around promoting their agenda while hiding behind the 1st.
NO NEW GUN LAWS! We need to stand together on this people. Don't listen to the media. Don't fall into the emotional traps. The Bill of Rights was written for reasons that haven't changed and has stood the test of time. If we allow the erosion of the 2nd pretty soon they will be telling us what to think and which God to pray to.
 

Webleymkv

New member
This whole issue becomes easier to understand if we put a few things in perspective first. First and foremost, it must be understood that under our current laws, any time a prohibited person acquires a firearm, at least one person has already comitted a crime. Not only is it illegal for a prohibited person to acquire a firearm under any circumstance, but it's also illegal for someone to knowingly supply a firearm to someone that they have reason to belive is a prohibited person.

Secondly, private party sales are but one means for a prohibited person to acquire a firearm and I've yet to see any evidence that it's the most prevalent, or even a particularly common, means. Theft and straw purchases are other means which come readily to mind. Since acquiring a firearm by any means is illegal for a prohibited person, why should we think that one would care which law they're breaking?

Third, the government has given us no reason to believe that they would enforce a law requiring universal background checks any more effectively than they've enforced the existing gun laws. If you are a prohibited person, you cannot fill out the 4473 truthfully and still appear able to purchase a firearm. I have to wonder how many prohibited people have turned to other means like theft, straw purchase, or private-party sales only after being denied on a NICS check. Perhaps if we prosecuted more of the people who lie on the 4473, posession of firearms by prohibited people would be less of an issue.

Finally, the only way to make Universal Background Checks even remotely enforceable would be through registration and even that could be circumvented by a clever enough person. There are currently between 390 and 465 Million privately owned guns in this country and they will likely remain in circulation for decades. Without registration, all a person would need to do in order to avoid prosecution for an illegal private sale is claim that the sale took place prior to the law's enaction. If anyone thinks for a moment that, without a registration requirement, the anti's will ever admit that Universal Background Checks simply don't work, then that person hasn't been paying much attention to the anti's playbook. Instead, they'll blame the failure of UBC's on the lack of registration and push for it later.

Even with registration, the law could be circumvented by the seller simply reporting the gun stolen. Since posession of an unregistered gun would already be a crime, why should the buyer care whether the seller reports the gun stolen or not since he's already in posession of illegal goods?

Registration is an extremely poor idea for a number of reasons. First, it allows for easier intimidation of lawful gun owners such as we recently saw with The Journal News in New York. Such an abuse would never have been able to happen without NY's registration requirement.

Secondly, it facilitates confiscation of lawfully owned weapons by over-zealous officials during a state of emergency such as we saw in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. While such confiscation may be illegal, it would have to be overturned throught he courts later and that would be of little help to the people who need their firearms then and there.

Finally, and most insidiously, it opens the door to selective enforcement and abuses of power by corrupt officials. Anyone who believes that officials in all levels of government could be trusted not to selectively enforce such laws only when politically convenient and only against those whom it is convenient for them to prosecute is deluding themselves. Without getting too political, the precedent has already been set by the executive branch of our government that enforcing laws which are deemed not to be politically expedient is optional. Why should we believe that gun laws would be treated any differently than the other laws which are selectively enforced?

So, when everything is considered, I can only come to the conclusion that Universal Background Checks, through an attempt to ban activities that are already illegal, would only place undue burden on law-abiding gun owners. Going the asinine route of making gun crimes "double illegal" isn't going to phase a criminal who, by definition, does not respect the law. The way to stop criminals from committing crimes is not to pile on more redundant and unenforceable laws, but to punish them for the crimes they've already committed. Personally, I think that if someone represents such a danger to society that they cannot be trusted to own a gun, then that person should remain locked away from society until they are no longer a danger. Violent criminals need to either remain incarcerated or, if the crime is severe enough, be executed and the violently mentally ill need to remain institutionalized until they can be treated to the point of no longer being dangerous.
 
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Skans

Active member
WebleymkV - you have just stated the best argument I've heard against Universal Background Checks - I thoroughly enjoyed reading that!
 

mrbatchelor

New member
>WebleymkV - you have just stated the best argument I've heard against Universal Background Checks - I thoroughly enjoyed reading that!<

Unless you object I'm stealing it and sending it to my CongressCritters.
 

AH.74

Moderator
WebleymkV - you have just stated the best argument I've heard against Universal Background Checks - I thoroughly enjoyed reading that!

Agreed. Sensible, logical- too bad it therefore won't be understood by so many who should read it....

Thanks for an excellent post.
 

mrbatchelor

New member
>Feel free.<

Posted to Congressional contact web form just now. I admitted that I wasn't the original author, but didn't attach any identifying info. They know how to use Google I'm sure.
 

Spats McGee

Administrator
gc70 said:
Spats McGee said:
UBCs create a hurdle to ownership, not possession.
I believe some current proposals for background checks do create a hurdle for possession. The background checks proposed in H.R.21 and S.150 both address "transfers" rather than just sales and both bills have specific exceptions for "a temporary transfer of possession" under limited conditions.
I have read S.150 (Feinstein's bill), but not HR21. I am somewhat short on time today, but let me as this: Does either of those bill create hurdles to possession which is not already in place? Extra hurdles? Or are we talking about possession by persons whose possession of firearms is already prohibited?
 

USAFNoDak

New member
Personally, I think that if someone represents such a danger to society that they cannot be trusted to own a gun, then that person should remain locked away from society until they are no longer a danger. Violent criminals need to either remain incarcerated or, if the crime is severe enough, be executed and the violently mentally ill need to remain institutionalized until they can be treated to the point of no longer being dangerous.
__________________

With this I fully agree. Why would we let anyone out of jail if we don't trust them to be law abiding going forward? Think of the logical disconnect here.

We let criminals out of jail whom we cannot trust to own firearms. They can get other weapons such as knives, tire irons, screw drivers, hammers, etc. They can even get guns on the black market. But we'll take our chances with them out on the street and hope that they don't injure or kill anyone.

But for you law abiding folks, we cannot trust you with a semiautomatic rifle if it has a pistol grip or any other cosmetic feature we deem to be unacceptable for civilian use. We just think that you're no better than a criminal whose been set free, for the most part. You cannot be trusted to behave.
 
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