you offer giving up something but the other side doesn't have to do the same. you are not a very good negotiator. BTW, I've grown quite tired of people negotiating away our 2nd amendment rights.
Universal Background Checks sans registration
- Thread starter Koda94
- Start date
- Status
44 AMP & Spats McGee, thank you for the dialog you both made some very compelling points. I am not in favor of that scenario or the one that keeps being presently proposed. Just putting it forward as an alternative to what is being pushed. There is no perfect solution and I keep preaching that we cannot legislate morality or values to a anarchist crowd or society.
ATM the greatest thing I fear are these Red Flag laws I find it hard to believe that they are any kind of Constitutional. I have also written to each of my US and State Rep's, Senators and Assembly persons stating my position on UBC and that they are still highly flawed and crippled because of HIPPA Privacy Laws. That they will never prevent criminals or mentally defective/deficient/altered persons from obtaining firearms.
ATM the greatest thing I fear are these Red Flag laws I find it hard to believe that they are any kind of Constitutional. I have also written to each of my US and State Rep's, Senators and Assembly persons stating my position on UBC and that they are still highly flawed and crippled because of HIPPA Privacy Laws. That they will never prevent criminals or mentally defective/deficient/altered persons from obtaining firearms.
American Man
New member
So you think a new weaponized database with everyone's medical records and history is going to make America safer? How about all these convicted felons and parolees roaming around out there with guns right now? I'm sure someone said a while back, lets make a system so we can put all these felons in a database and prevent them from buying guns.
Red flag laws, the Hippa argument... all just used to keep people fighting and dividing. All in the name of common sense. I can't wait till they come up with a solution so I don't have to have an alarm system or lock my doors... I' sure the gov't is not going to let me down.
UBC w/out Registration is a canard. It's a 3 play chess move.
1. Pass UBC w/out Registration
2. UBC doesn't work b/c:
a. people w/no records decide to do bad.
b. people with records ask "clean" friends to buy them guns
c. people with records steal guns from other people
d. people with records buy guns from "clean" dealers.
e. Etc. resulting in "bad things."
3. Gov't throws up its hands and says "well, I guess we do need a registration to fix the loopholes."
4. UBC with Registration. Checkmate.
1. Pass UBC w/out Registration
2. UBC doesn't work b/c:
a. people w/no records decide to do bad.
b. people with records ask "clean" friends to buy them guns
c. people with records steal guns from other people
d. people with records buy guns from "clean" dealers.
e. Etc. resulting in "bad things."
3. Gov't throws up its hands and says "well, I guess we do need a registration to fix the loopholes."
4. UBC with Registration. Checkmate.
buck460XVR
New member
While I admit there are a few folks who might buy all their guns FTF, for the most part, we already have successful UBCs for, IMHO, about 90-95% of the guns legally bought and sold in this country. The loopholes are not that big, nor are they many, when it comes to legal gun sales. Those folks who sell guns FTF legally for the most part, again, IMHO, are pretty particular who they sell their guns to. Add to this, twenty-one states and Washington DC have extended the background check requirement beyond federal law to at least some private sales. This means that any new legislation for UBCs will affect a very minute portion of gun sales and thus it's impact will be almost negligible when it comes to reducing violence with guns. Yet, this is a very passionate and argumentative subject.
Why is it that when they tell us about stocks that "past performance is no guarantee of future results" people nod and say "that makes sense" but when it comes to firearms, people claim that a bad background always means bad behavior in the future and that a good (clean) background ensures good behavior in the future those same people nod, cheer and accept it as if it were Holy Writ???
UBC's without registration may be a canard, but UBC's WITH registration are the same canard, just with fewer intermediate steps.
The entire idea that laws prevent crime is a lie of the same ilk. Laws do not prevent crime, only provide the legal framework for punishment after the fact.
What prevents crime if the belief in the minds of people that they WILL be caught and that the punishment is far, far worse than any benefit they get from committing the crime. I don't see that we have that in the US today, not to the degree we once had.
Can we get that back? (did we ever really have it? or did we just think we did?) How do we do it? I don't have the answers to this, or at least not answers that are politically acceptable today....
What seems to be fashionable today is to keep adding laws only the innocent will obey and mostly ignoring the guilty, or just token punishment when/if they get caught.
The system isn't completely broken, but it is badly out of alignment and nearly every proposed "fix" only seems to further reduce the stability.
We are, in many places, at or even past the point where the STATE assumes you are a bad guy in waiting if you want a gun, and requires what they deem proof that you are not. Every time you want a gun. OR every so often, based on some arbitrary bureaucratically determined expiration date.
To me this seems at odds with the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty and doesn't seem to square well with the ideals expressed in "Land of the Free".
Yet. here we are.....
UBC's without registration may be a canard, but UBC's WITH registration are the same canard, just with fewer intermediate steps.
The entire idea that laws prevent crime is a lie of the same ilk. Laws do not prevent crime, only provide the legal framework for punishment after the fact.
What prevents crime if the belief in the minds of people that they WILL be caught and that the punishment is far, far worse than any benefit they get from committing the crime. I don't see that we have that in the US today, not to the degree we once had.
Can we get that back? (did we ever really have it? or did we just think we did?) How do we do it? I don't have the answers to this, or at least not answers that are politically acceptable today....
What seems to be fashionable today is to keep adding laws only the innocent will obey and mostly ignoring the guilty, or just token punishment when/if they get caught.
The system isn't completely broken, but it is badly out of alignment and nearly every proposed "fix" only seems to further reduce the stability.
We are, in many places, at or even past the point where the STATE assumes you are a bad guy in waiting if you want a gun, and requires what they deem proof that you are not. Every time you want a gun. OR every so often, based on some arbitrary bureaucratically determined expiration date.
To me this seems at odds with the basic concept of innocent until proven guilty and doesn't seem to square well with the ideals expressed in "Land of the Free".
Yet. here we are.....
Aguila Blanca
Staff
And no laws, no background checks, pretty much nothing can predict or prevent a guy like the Las Vegas shooter, who was completely "clean" from a criminal history perspective, from doing what he did. Future punishment was not a concern for him, since he apparently expected to die from the incident anyway.44_AMP said:
Not true.
Mainly because "most" have already allowed it to get this far, with effetely ZERO resistance.
And that right there is the problem folks.
Anyone want to guess why?
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"
Unfortunately, the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch.
Unfortunately, the American culture is shifting, in fact it has been happening for decades.
Unfortunately, those of us who understand the basis for the 2A, such support such ideals... Are dying off.
Unfortunately, the left knows it.
buck460XVR
New member
I hafta take offense to this. Your statement is far from the truth. "Vast majority" - means almost all or something like 90% or more, but less than unanimous. If you were correct, we'd already be without guns.
Kinda how it has worked since the beginning of time. Folks move in and bring other ideas/ideals. The priorities of the folks within a culture change as technology, knowledge and skills change. When I was a kid the majority of folks lived in rural areas and most everyone I knew came from a farm. That ain't true anymore. Nothing ever stays the same.
Again, not so much. One only has to look at numbers to see that the majority of Americans, even them old folks on their death bed, are in support of UBCs. Many claim, a Vast Majority. Many of those so ardent against UBCs are young folks and those who are new to the shooting sports and have had little or nothing to do with gun rights other than the last decade. Maybe part of the problem with recruitment of younger folks is because we are driving them off with statements like "the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch".
....and apparently from your post, the right knows it too. With the challenges we face as responsible gun owners, we cannot afford to divide ourselves with chest beating and belittling our fellow gun enthusiasts. We need to nurture, educate, and embrace, not chastise and force them away. We have enough enemies, we do not need to make ourselves one too.
I disagree. At least with the lazy apathetic part. Out of touch? maybe, but who isn't, about SOME things?
I think the "vast majority" of gun owners are just that, gun owners, and not gun enthusiasts, (some gun "owners" are not gun "users") and like most people, don't get very involved in things that don't have a direct impact on their personal lives. I think the vast majority have too many other things in their lives that are more important to their day to day lives. Or, they think they do...
The guy who gets to go hunting 3 or 4 times during the season, deer, duck, whatever, has a gun, maybe two, and isn't planning on getting a new one for some years, IF the budget allows, after the bills are paid, the kids have shoes, etc, they don't care much about UBCs or another new form they'll have to fill out WHEN they are able to get another gun.
They're in the polls "supporting" UBCs because all they know (or care) about them is what the pollsters tell them. They get told something like "you need to support this, so wife-beaters don't get guns", and so, of course, they do.
They DON'T get told that "wife beaters" have been legally prohibited from owning guns since 1968....
They don't get told that, in order to sell their duck gun to their neighbor whom they have known for 30 years that they have to take the gun and the neighbor to an FFL dealer (during business hours) and pay a fee...
The "polls" are BS, about who supports what. You can get ANY result you desire from a poll, by tailoring the questions and the "sample polled".
Poll a hundred people, or even a thousand, and absolutely for sure that what the other 330MILLION people in this country think, you betcha!!
Its not just smoke and mirrors, it's also deliberate lies, both of omission and of commission.
The vast majority of gun owners don't stand "the watch on the wall" guarding their rights. Until it becomes something that touches their personal lives in an unpleasant way. THen, some do "awake" but others never do...
That is on you as nothing I stated was directed at you (or anyone else) specifically.
Feel free to factually refute it...
There is no such stipulation in the definition.
"We" have been steadily losing our 2A rights, and accepting continued infringements, for nearly a century.
In many areas of the nation guns are forbidden.
Many people are forbidden to own guns.
Many people are having theirs restricted or taken away.
Those are all facts
Cite where I stated it did... or should...
The fact of the matter is that you missed my entire point, which is a rather simple one.
That is that the culture is shifting away from a "gun culture", and away from a 2A ideals culture.
Culturally speaking, if no other infringements were to be made by the left, odds our kind will likely go the way of the Dodo, or at least close to it.
Okay, lets look at them...
Using the most generous estimates, something like 100 million Americans may own a firearm.
Now look at the supposed "gold standard" of 2A supporters, the NRA... ~5.5 million members
Mix in the the ranks of the GOA at ~2 million members
So we're at at 7.5 million members, lets include the smaller more obscure ranks and round up....
10 million members, or roughly 10% of the gun owning population
So the "vast majority" of gun owners are NOT supporting the 2A through the easiest of means....Hmmm
Lets look another another set of numbers...
AR15.com has something around 500,000 users, arguably the largest "gun forum" on the internet (feel free to correct me)
A highly sponsored, highly advertised, highly organized "rally" in DC drew barely a few hundred people, about 500 from the pic/videos I saw.
"Oh but people came and went"
Okay, lets double the number to 1,000
Then lets factor in cloaking devices and double to 2,000
Better include those who have the natural power of invisibility and round up to 5,000
That would be just 1% of their entire user base
One-percent
Care to talk more about my assertion of laziness and apathy?
That statement just proved my entire point... literally.
Cite specifically where I did either....
Frankly such an assertion sounds like leftist speak, they ignore facts and rely largely on emotion.
If facts hurt feelings, then maybe gun owners should grow some thicker skin.
After all, how are they going to handle losing even more rights as that is the direction we are heading.
No offense intended guy... but that sounds like it was taken right from AOC or Sanders rally.
No what "we" need to do FIRST, is admit the dire straights we are in.
This ongoing denial, the burying of heads in the sand, the kicking the can down the road mentality... all need to stop.
I'm seeing it right here in this very thread.
If my lil ole words and opinion do such a thing... then we are more screwed than even I imagined.
So what you are saying then is that facts hurt feelings?
How can "we" stand up to the left if "we" cannot even admit where we are at?
Listen guy, if my opinions trigger such angst, I truly do not know what to tell you other than they were sincerely not meant to. I am simply stating what I see from my perspective of living well over half a century on this earth, most of which spent using firearms, over half of it in law enforcement, being rabid a student of history, by nature being an intellectually curious fact seeker, and a genuine 'people watcher'.
20-30 years ago I would have read my own words and told myself I was nuts.
Today, I honestly fear for the future of the Republic, I truly do.
And I know for a fact I am not the only one.
I stand by my original statement.
I'm not really sure how to respond to your post as you first stated that you "disagreed", but then went on to literally describe many gun owners as being apathetic.
As for the part about "polls", I never cited or even mentioned any.
Please read my entire response to "buck460XVR", as maybe it will clarify some things for you regarding my opinion and original statement.
Also keep in mind that opinions are just that, everyone is free to have their own
I actually hope I am entirely wrong, that we will pull our poop together and fix our broken nation.
In fact, the "wronger" I am the better!
well, damn. this about sums it up fairly well.That is on you as nothing I stated was directed at you (or anyone else) specifically.
Feel free to factually refute it...
There is no such stipulation in the definition.
"We" have been steadily losing our 2A rights, and accepting continued infringements, for nearly a century.
In many areas of the nation guns are forbidden.
Many people are forbidden to own guns.
Many people are having theirs restricted or taken away.
Those are all facts
Cite where I stated it did... or should...
The fact of the matter is that you missed my entire point, which is a rather simple one.
That is that the culture is shifting away from a "gun culture", and away from a 2A ideals culture.
Culturally speaking, if no other infringements were to be made by the left, odds our kind will likely go the way of the Dodo, or at least close to it.
Okay, lets look at them...
Using the most generous estimates, something like 100 million Americans may own a firearm.
Now look at the supposed "gold standard" of 2A supporters, the NRA... ~5.5 million members
Mix in the the ranks of the GOA at ~2 million members
So we're at at 7.5 million members, lets include the smaller more obscure ranks and round up....
10 million members, or roughly 10% of the gun owning population
So the "vast majority" of gun owners are NOT supporting the 2A through the easiest of means....Hmmm
Lets look another another set of numbers...
AR15.com has something around 500,000 users, arguably the largest "gun forum" on the internet (feel free to correct me)
A highly sponsored, highly advertised, highly organized "rally" in DC drew barely a few hundred people, about 500 from the pic/videos I saw.
"Oh but people came and went"
Okay, lets double the number to 1,000
Then lets factor in cloaking devices and double to 2,000
Better include those who have the natural power of invisibility and round up to 5,000
That would be just 1% of their entire user base
One-percent
Care to talk more about my assertion of laziness and apathy?
That statement just proved my entire point... literally.
Cite specifically where I did either....
Frankly such an assertion sounds like leftist speak, they ignore facts and rely largely on emotion.
If facts hurt feelings, then maybe gun owners should grow some thicker skin.
After all, how are they going to handle losing even more rights as that is the direction we are heading.
No offense intended guy... but that sounds like it was taken right from AOC or Sanders rally.
No what "we" need to do FIRST, is admit the dire straights we are in.
This ongoing denial, the burying of heads in the sand, the kicking the can down the road mentality... all need to stop.
I'm seeing it right here in this very thread.
If my lil ole words and opinion do such a thing... then we are more screwed than even I imagined.
So what you are saying then is that facts hurt feelings?
How can "we" stand up to the left if "we" cannot even admit where we are at?
Listen guy, if my opinions trigger such angst, I truly do not know what to tell you other than they were sincerely not meant to. I am simply stating what I see from my perspective of living well over half a century on this earth, most of which spent using firearms, over half of it in law enforcement, being rabid a student of history, by nature being an intellectually curious fact seeker, and a genuine 'people watcher'.
20-30 years ago I would have read my own words and told myself I was nuts.
Today, I honestly fear for the future of the Republic, I truly do.
And I know for a fact I am not the only one.
I stand by my original statement.
I agree with you about your words today being heard 20 or so years ago. we went from states with may issue or even no issue to shall issue, government infringements "sunsetting", et cetera.... today many of the same states that were leaders in 2nd amendment recognition are turning the other way, not because of a rise in crime but a failure of the voting public to support politicians that honor the 2nd amendment.
No, thanks, I'm too lazy and apathetic.
If you'd care to define your standards, and show us where you think someone goes from lazy and apathetic to energetic and caring, I'll listen, though I may not agree with you 100%.
The OP of the thread is Universal Background Checks sans registration. I believe it is possible. I don't believe it is right, but it is possible. Discussion of the general state of our gun rights, past and current state of efforts from both sides is related, but not directly on topic. There are times when valid topics deserve their own threads.
American Man
New member
So your opinion that you claim as fact, "Unfortunately, the vast majority of gun owners are lazy, apathetic, and out of touch." is disputed by buck460XVR and you want him to factually refute your opinion.
Since you dispute his opinion of vast majority, why don't you give us the exact, factually substantiated definition in percentages of what is the "vast majority".
I think you have a lot of good points, but for most states, the 2A is not in jeopardy. And the state that is having a serious wake up call, VA, is not sitting quietly. People can repeat over and over "where were they during the election?" but they appear to have woken up now... and I don't think it is too late. I live in a state that has had Democrat majorities in the Governor's office, house and senate, and did not even think about pulling the garbage they are pulling in VA... and that could be viewed as the politicians just know better than to pull some crap like that. Apparently the socialist agenda driven democrats in my state, that is practically purple, don't see the majority of gun owners as lazy apathetic and out of touch.
Many things are possible in principle. That doesn't make them true stand alone features in a real political system where the same motive for UBCs also supports other restrictions.
I don't see that gun owners are particularly apathetic on 2d Am. issues, but they also aren't categorically supportive of the 2d Am. Normal people aren't consumed by politics because they have things going on in their lives; any of school, work or family are likely to be a priority over travelling to DC to protest.
The drive for greater restrictions does have an advantage in political terrain. People who've just heard of an outrage can, for a short period of time, believe that the source of the outrage is a priority. Someone whose greatest anxiety last week was what to serve at a dinner party may be led to believe that last week's school shooting 2000 miles away is a priority that demands a call to her congressman, or even just staying on the telephone to answer a survey question. The result is public polling in which support for a restriction may be highly variable and increases just after a prominent story.
In contrast, people with a more complex than average view of a right to firearms possession may have less variable opinions, but express those opinions within the context of an ordinary life, i.e. one not dominated by political issues.
The problem in dealing in concessions on this right is that one will be dealing with political opportunists who prey on constituents who periodically express their outrage at genuinely outrageous events. That sort of concession is a retreat, not a settlement.
I don't see that gun owners are particularly apathetic on 2d Am. issues, but they also aren't categorically supportive of the 2d Am. Normal people aren't consumed by politics because they have things going on in their lives; any of school, work or family are likely to be a priority over travelling to DC to protest.
The drive for greater restrictions does have an advantage in political terrain. People who've just heard of an outrage can, for a short period of time, believe that the source of the outrage is a priority. Someone whose greatest anxiety last week was what to serve at a dinner party may be led to believe that last week's school shooting 2000 miles away is a priority that demands a call to her congressman, or even just staying on the telephone to answer a survey question. The result is public polling in which support for a restriction may be highly variable and increases just after a prominent story.
In contrast, people with a more complex than average view of a right to firearms possession may have less variable opinions, but express those opinions within the context of an ordinary life, i.e. one not dominated by political issues.
The problem in dealing in concessions on this right is that one will be dealing with political opportunists who prey on constituents who periodically express their outrage at genuinely outrageous events. That sort of concession is a retreat, not a settlement.
I would also point out that, in some places, even were gun owners are not "lazy and apathetic" the system can still defeat us.
Its not just about us standing up and defending our rights, its ALSO about how effective the other side is convincing people who don't know better that their lies are the truth.
Even if the other side doesn't demonize us (they want guns, guns=bad so they= bad) or marginalize us (they're just fringe lunatics conspiracy nuts), their side has a huge advantage over ours. First and foremost (and don't ever forget it) they are willing to lie and say what ever is needed to support their cause, AND they think its RIGHT to do so.
Our side generally holds that its wrong to lie.
Second advantage they have is money. Third is a form of class warfare. Indeed it can even be a form of snobbery. "Good" people don't have guns, don't like guns, and when guns are absolutely needed they hire people to use them.
Some times they actually say it, but even when they don't they imply that if you like guns, or even believe in the right to have them, then you are not "good" people.
I live in a state where a UBC law was defeated in the Legislature, repeatedly. Failing to get their law through regular channels the backers got it put on the ballot through the initiative process. They then launched a massive PR campaign targeted on the metro areas. They got it passed in those 5 counties. Every other place in the state voted it down.
5 aye, 37 nay...the Ayes have it!
wait..what??? how's that right??
Well, son, those 5 have more votes than all the rest of you combined, that's Democracy, boy!!
SO, its state law now...
Our side has a built in disadvantage as we generally believe in individual choice and honesty. One side trumpets "do what we say and you will be safe" and all we have is the truth and what we believe, that "you have the right to choose and no one can guarantee you will be safe."
Rational thought holds its own against Fear only up to a certain point, after which Fear runs rampant, for a time, and doing tremendous damage while on the loose. What is that point? How to we prevent getting there? Its different for every issue and every culture and subculture.
Where were the strident calls for gun bans and UBCs and all of that in 2002, 3, 4 5, etc? The same people who pushed gun control in the 90s were still big players then, many still are today.
9/11/2001
knocked the US gun control movement on its ass, for about a decade. Why?
If you understand "the Riddle of Steel" you know why. They don't get it.
It is the hand (the WILL) that matters, not the steel. They only see the steel, or at least that's the way they act.
The current push for a national UBC, where every purchase and transfer is checked and only people who are authorized under law can get guns is a fantasy. NO system can deliver that, And the choices we are given will not, and cannot even remotely live up to the promises being made for them.
People who actually THINK about things recognize this. (and that includes people on their side as well as ours). People who go only one what they get told, don't.
Election results lately seem to indicate that there are more who don't, than who do.
This becomes a problem when your system relies on just numbers of votes.
Its not just about us standing up and defending our rights, its ALSO about how effective the other side is convincing people who don't know better that their lies are the truth.
Even if the other side doesn't demonize us (they want guns, guns=bad so they= bad) or marginalize us (they're just fringe lunatics conspiracy nuts), their side has a huge advantage over ours. First and foremost (and don't ever forget it) they are willing to lie and say what ever is needed to support their cause, AND they think its RIGHT to do so.
Our side generally holds that its wrong to lie.
Second advantage they have is money. Third is a form of class warfare. Indeed it can even be a form of snobbery. "Good" people don't have guns, don't like guns, and when guns are absolutely needed they hire people to use them.
Some times they actually say it, but even when they don't they imply that if you like guns, or even believe in the right to have them, then you are not "good" people.
I live in a state where a UBC law was defeated in the Legislature, repeatedly. Failing to get their law through regular channels the backers got it put on the ballot through the initiative process. They then launched a massive PR campaign targeted on the metro areas. They got it passed in those 5 counties. Every other place in the state voted it down.
5 aye, 37 nay...the Ayes have it!
wait..what??? how's that right??
Well, son, those 5 have more votes than all the rest of you combined, that's Democracy, boy!!
SO, its state law now...
Our side has a built in disadvantage as we generally believe in individual choice and honesty. One side trumpets "do what we say and you will be safe" and all we have is the truth and what we believe, that "you have the right to choose and no one can guarantee you will be safe."
Rational thought holds its own against Fear only up to a certain point, after which Fear runs rampant, for a time, and doing tremendous damage while on the loose. What is that point? How to we prevent getting there? Its different for every issue and every culture and subculture.
Where were the strident calls for gun bans and UBCs and all of that in 2002, 3, 4 5, etc? The same people who pushed gun control in the 90s were still big players then, many still are today.
9/11/2001
knocked the US gun control movement on its ass, for about a decade. Why?
If you understand "the Riddle of Steel" you know why. They don't get it.
It is the hand (the WILL) that matters, not the steel. They only see the steel, or at least that's the way they act.
The current push for a national UBC, where every purchase and transfer is checked and only people who are authorized under law can get guns is a fantasy. NO system can deliver that, And the choices we are given will not, and cannot even remotely live up to the promises being made for them.
People who actually THINK about things recognize this. (and that includes people on their side as well as ours). People who go only one what they get told, don't.
Election results lately seem to indicate that there are more who don't, than who do.
This becomes a problem when your system relies on just numbers of votes.
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