Unintentional discharges

[Rob P.]

Sorry Blackmind, but I disagree with you when you say:

For one thing, NO, not everyone who "fools around with guns" will have a NEGLIGENT discharge...

For one thing, the odds are against you in ANY endeavor. No one can be safe always. Eventually the odds will catch up to you and a "mistake" will happen. You'll get a ticket in your car no matter how careful you are, you will slip on an icy sidewalk at some point, your ankle holster fails and you kick your gun across the floor at the post office, blink at the wrong moment, etc.

All you can do is try to be as safe as you can so that when the odds DO catch up to you the incident is minimized. In 30 years of shooting I have had ONE accidental/negligent discharge. Where the live round came from I don't know since I didn't have ANY .25 cal rounds at all except the 3 dummy rounds which I had made by pulling the bullets, dumping the powder and firing the caps one at a time in the gun. Other than those 3 rounds there WERE NO OTHER ROUNDS IN THE BUILDING for that weapon. I had also fully cycled the weapon several times previously with no problems or discharges using those same 3 rounds. As the hammer is not exposed and the safety does not cause the hammer to fall to a safe position (it only locks the hammer in a cocked position), the only way to return the weapon to neutral battery is to pull the trigger. I did so and a dummy round fired. So, what happened? I have no idea except to say that Fate stuck her magic fingers into my life and the result was a dead fireplace screen.

Was this negligence on my part? Certainly. Exactly what I did incorrectly is a mystery. All I can say is that it happened, I am not ashamed of it and I learned something from the experience - I practice safety even when working on "unloaded" guns because even a gun that I have personally unloaded can still kill or injure if pointed at someone.

Here's my thought for the day (I was told this once and find it to be true): You may be THE BEST THERE IS OR EVER WAS in everything possible. Numero Uno Par Excellante. Great for you, however, that means that the "best" that anyone else could possibly be is Second Best. Being Second Best means that you make at least one mistake at some point. I am not perfect, are you?

 

[BlueTrain]

I don't want to belabor the point but there are other embarassing things that can happen, too. For one thing, I would suggest not going to the range to shoot your .45 LC and your .44 Magnum the same day.

I don't know where you go to shoot (remember, I've just about given that up, but something is in my blood, lead, I guess) but the one I visit has a nice collection of exploded handguns, all old revolvers. I never asked about the circumstances of any of them but someone made a mistake along the way. Not necessarily the first one or the last one.

Now I will freely admit to having done stupid things now and then and lived to tell about it. But the world I live in isn't that safe to begin with and I manage. I did avoid shooting the cat or the plate glass door and I learned a lesson. I am sure I have other lessons to be learned, too, not necessarily having to do with unintentional discharges but with guns all the same. Some are cheap, some are costly, none particularly dangerous. Like for instance, do you realize how easy it is to bend the spring on the slide stop of a Colt .380? Or how sharp the edges are on extended safeties on a .45 Auto?

Does anyone remember the fast draw craze with single actions in the 1950's? There were lots of accidents then but at the moment I can't think of a similar shooting action sport that was nearly so dangerous, at least when real ammuntion or even wax bullets are used.

Here's another case. At one time the accepted practice, meaning the official US Army manual practice, was to carry a .45 auto with the hammer down on a chambered round. It is completely safe to carry it that way but getting it into that condition is tricky, to say the least. It might also help to only use military issue ammuntion (harder primers) but I wonder when they changed their practice? That was when they were still carrying only five rounds in revolvers.

Accidents happen and they are all unfortunate. Safety practices can always be improved up to a point, meaning the point at which it is decided that firearms are just too dangerous to have around under any circumstances. So don't fall into that trap. I believe people have the right (not SHOULD have the right) to own firearms unconditionally.

 

[MikeOrick]

By now most of us have seen the DEA agents ND w his Glock (hit leg) in front of an audience...

Another DEA agent had an ND w his Glock stuffing it in his waistband prior to cuffing a suspect (hit butt)...

A US Marshal had an ND w his Glock aboard a commercial aircraft (holstering; hit leg)...

Numerous FBI agents have had NDs w Glocks in the FBI academy range cleaning room. The FBI director's driver shot himself in the hand w his Glock...

A LE trainee in GA was shot and killed by a LE instructor w his Glock...

A LE trainee here shot herself in the leg w her Glock...

I'm not picking on Glocks, there are just so many of them out there now...

Wait! There's more!

A USAF guard shot the wing (3 round burst) of the fully fueled tanker aircraft he was guarding...

A US Army troop shot a round of HE from his M203 grenade launcher through the roof of the van he was in; the unexploded round landed on top of the armory...

Two USAF guards were quick drawing on each other, and one shot the other...

An A-10 aircraft shot a 30mm round through both sides of the maint van parked in front of it, and the round hit a power substation near the flightline...

If it can happen, it will, sooner or later?

 

[BlueTrain]

You should read Skeeter Skelton's story of when he was practicing fast draw in front of a mirror when he was, I believe, a Border Patrolman. And the lengths he went to cover up the incident. He did admit, however, not being any faster than the guy in the mirrow.

 

[AndrewTB]

No my instructor didnt group them together. But to have a misfire not once but twice on the same gun from the sounds of it is pure negligence.


What I meant is if you have a discharge due to a mechanical failure I dont blame you for being negligent but the gun doesn't seem to be in safe condition if its happend more then once.

 

[wayneinFL]

To those who think it can't happen to you or won't happen to you, because you are just so much better than BlueTrain- it CAN. And if you ever do have a ND it will be when you are confident of your abilities and let your guard down. And it will be negligent when you do it, too.

Hopefully, you adhere to enough of the rest of the rules that you don't injure or kill someone. For example, keep it pointed in a safe direction.

BTW, I don't think there is anything wrong with dropping the hammer on a pistol at the range (pointed at the berm, of course) to make sure it is unloaded after you have cleared it.

As for the take a safety course advice - true, but most of the ND's seem to come from people who are the best trained and have spent the most time shooting. The rest seem to be too scared of a gun to let it happen to them.

 

[rgoudy1975]

Set up a poll: Who has had a ND? Would be interesting?

 

[BlueTrain]

To AndrewTB, it is entirely possible that you can have a lot of misfires and for them not to be firearm related. Usually, of course, this is from using old ammunition, generally military surplus. I have actually seen surplus .45-70 ammunition for sale but there was a batch of .303 British that resulted in a lot of misfires. But after all, a misfire is pretty much the opposite of an unintentional discharge but I would suspect that most unintentional discharges are the result of faulty trigger fingers. But isn't it interesting how often Glocks got mentioned?

Along these lines, I might mention that I have never experienced a slamfire, a late ignition (there is a term for that) or have a gun to go full auto.

It is not surprising that the police have a lot of unintentional discharges, inasmuch as they are always armed and it does not follow that the police are "gun people." I wonder if there are more accidents than there used to be or the other way round? Hunters sometimes suffer accidents but I wish they were not so well publicized. I also wonder sometimes if all accidental shootings are really accidents.

There was a curious incident at the college I attended, which was West Virginia University. The mascot of the school was a mountaineer. He was dressed in buckskins and coonskin cap and carried a muzzleloader. He would fire it when the football team scored a touchdown. That ended when someone made a rule about discharging firearms inside the stadium. Anyway, there were many different mascots over the years and one unfortunate individual managed to shoot off part of his finger, presumably when reloading.

There was also a story related (this doesn't end in a shooting) but I don't know who first told it. It was a gun writer of years gone by, either Skeeter Skelton or one of the other Border Patrol graduate school of gun writers. Some old lawman carried his .45 auto cocked and UNlocked. When advised that the practice appeared to be a little dangerous, the reply was that if the gun wasn't dangerous he wouldn't be carrying it.

Concerning the police again, an unintentional discharge is grounds for dismissal from SWAT teams or other special duty squads, I understand. Higher standards are expected form people like that but apparently other individuals are allowed more mistakes. But wouldn't be nice if Glocks had real safeties? But the prewar Shanghai, China, police were equipped with (mostly) Colt automatics. Their's were specially modified to have their safeties pinned to the off positition (don't know about the grip safety) to insure that they would not have an unintentional safety engagement during action. It goes without saying that they were carried chamber empty. They also turned in their pistols at the end of their shift so that the next shift could use them. Part of the clearing process was to snap the hammer!

Real accidents can happen, too, I found out (this didn't end in a shooting either). At one time I owned a Browning HP (or GP for you French folks). This was the first new gun I ever owned but not the first Browning High-Power. Anyway, it was lying on a high shelf in my basement, perhaps eight feet off the floor. I managed to knock it off one day and in the manner of jelly side down, it landed square on the hammer. It was not loaded and the hammer did not break but that could easily have resulted in a unintentional discharge. Colts, at least, are now manufactured with an extra pin to prevent a discharge under such a circumstance, although the only reason I suspect is to pass a drop test intended to simulate such an accident.

Since then I just keep the guns on the floor.

 

[Oderus]

"Some old lawman carried his .45 auto cocked and UNlocked. When advised that the practice appeared to be a little dangerous, the reply was that if the gun wasn't dangerous he wouldn't be carrying it."

The way I heard that story was that he did keep the manual safety on, but tied down the grip safety with a piece of rawhide. Not quite the same.

I could have the story wrong though.

 

[USP45usp]

I hope that the Admins and the Mods allow this one time:

As long as you have breath in your body, s**t will happen . I'm not saying that everyone will have one, but the more you are around something and the more that you handle something, you are at greater risk for something happening then to those who don't.

My ND was my fault and my stupidity. The internet wasn't around then (1989 or 90) like it is now and boards weren't even thought of at the time. I knew most of the rules, but as a very young (21) adult, rules were just suggestions at the time or so I thought.

So, there is really no need to jump down the posters throat. Just say that you hope that he learned from his mistake and carry on and/or share your moment of stupidity.

****edited: nevermind on the bad joke.

Wayne

re-edited: I made the *'s before the edited above, not the computer, sorry about that . I did do the ** in the word in the first paragraph though, that's the one that I asked "just this once" about.

 

[Dog Confetti]

"an unintentional discharge is grounds for dismissal from SWAT teams or other special duty squads, I understand. Higher standards are expected form people like that but apparently other individuals are allowed more mistakes"...

How do you figure? That's like saying I'm "allowed" to run down a few pedestrians because I'm not a professional driver...That's like the insanity defense...like saying I'm not responsible because I don't know any better. One may not know better, but the standards are absolute, and ignorance or incompetence is not an excuse, it is a fault.

 

[Edward429451]

Being "really familiar with guns" is not tantamount to being a responsible person, who will handle guns responsibly and with due care.

+1 on this. Me & my bro have been around guns since boyhood. I've never had an ND but my bro has ND's most every gun he's ever owned and a few others. He's a better shot than me but a lot more negligent in his handling. I've let a few rounds go downrange unintentionally here n there before, with unfamilier guns that had light triggers. They were isimply premature discharges though as I was expecting to shoot and was following the rules, they just had that super suprise break. I don't consider myself immune to ND's though and am somewhat of a stickler about gun safety.

I didn't really think it sounded like anyone jumped down the posters throat about his incident(s!), but did note the original posters hesitancy to voice any personal responsibility for multiple and repeated incidents. Too much pride or overconfidence is a bad mindset and may get someone hurt! As much as it hurts to say I screwed up, You'd be better off humbling yourself to admitting your negligence and shake off that denial. That gun didn't go off sitting on the counter, who's hand was it in (each time)? With all due respect, an accident is something that's unavoidable, are you saying that when you have a gun in your hand that it's unavoidable that a discharge will happen? That's worse than admitting that you screwed up a couple times.

 

[Rufus Pisanus]

I guess in case of a mechanical failure once could have a true AD but probably everything else is a ND. I haven't had any so far but once got close: I was putting back in the trunk my guns (several rifles) after a session at the range. Normally I cycle the bolt, check that the chamber is empty (and there is no magazine or is empty) then pull the trigger. That day I was in a hurry and I "knew" they were all unloaded and I was about to just press the trigger (pointing to the ground) but then I told myself that it would take only few seconds to check and it was safer that way. Sure enough there was a round in the chamber of one of them...

 

[BlueTrain]

It was not my intention in my first post on this thread to suggest that I did not believe I did something stupid when I had an unintentional discharge. Quite the opposite and moreover, to point out the circumstances. I don't think I left anything out of the story except perhaps the time of day.

Part of my intention was to get other people to share their experiences and ideas on the subject. Clearly a few people have been willing to admit having done such a thing on occasion, others have always been perfect. One thing I was looking for was people's thoughts on one's right to continue owning firearms (just owning, not necessarily carrying), should you ever have an accidental discharge. It appears that some of you would very quickly limit a person's right to own firearms. Remember the anti-gun crowd would ban all firearms just because they are dangerous, among other reasons. Some might limit ownership to those who can justify a need for a firearm, such as a professional hunter, but now I'm getting off topic.

I think the analogy with an accident with a car is off the point. It is awfully hard to loose your license to drive, maybe too hard, but having an accident will not be the end of your driving career, even if you are a professional race car driver. But ordinary policemen are not thrown off the force for having an accidental discharge. But at the same time, many of you might also think ordinary policemen do not have enough firearms training to begin with.

This has been a good thread, hasn't it?

 

[claude783]

Had a problem when a Beretta .22 (mod.948) slipped out of my shoulder holster, when it hit the ground, it went "bang". No, the hammer wasn't cocked, but this is when I did some research and discovered about non-inertia firing pins...got a different holster and never had another problem with that gun.

Then had a 9mm go off one time. No, didn't have my finger on the trigger, but when I racked the slide, and let it fall forward it went "bang". Seems some dirt got caught in the firing pin, spring area and the firing pin remained out where it could discharge the weapon. Was pointing it towards the ground so other than having to change my shorts there were no problems..

 

[Longbowshooter]

I was in a gun store once when a clerk had an AD/malfunction with a .45. I was in another section of the store @ 15' away when it happened. My back was to him. He swore to the manager his finger wasn't on the trigger. I was surprised, it wasn't as loud as I thought it would have been. He wasn't there anymore after that happened (not that I was much either!). The store closed a few months ago.