Uhhh ... We're Not Sure Anthrax is Terrorist-Related ...

Jeff Thomas

New member
Take a gander at these interesting jpg's on Drudge ... http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm

OK ... I suppose this could be the result of a science project prank in Brooklyn, but ... sure looks more likely to be terrorism to me.

Why hasn't our government been more forthright regarding this connection? Have I missed this? Seems to me we've been hearing a lot of happy talk lately about how we're not sure the Anthrax is terrorist-related.

Remember the first death in Florida ... they were initially speculating it was a coincidence ... that looked pretty silly even at first blush. Oh ... we have airliners flown into buildings, and gee ... we have the first anthrax case in 25 years. Just a coincidence.

What purpose did the FBI have in holding on to this stuff until now? I grant in a heartbeat that they can and should keep their investigations close to the vest, but ... why snow us about the anthrax story?

Some of this is starting to look like one of those bad 1950's science fiction movies ... "Don't tell them that aliens have landed ... it will cause mass hysteria ...!"

I suppose I'm once again left with this question ... why do people in government wonder why we don't trust them ... when they lie to us over, and over, and over ...

Regards from AZ
 
Certainly this is terrorism pure and simple. But is this connected to the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11? Couldn't they have been holding on to them to prevent copy-cats? Perhaps the letters were being tested in the crime lab for "all" this time. What a whole week or two? Doesn't seem like to long to me.

I think the fact that these letters are now on the FBIs website is telling. They obviously are at a point in the investigation where releasing them is immaterial to the case.

But, that's just my opinion...
 

jimpeel

New member
If we really can't expect them to learn to speak our language, we sure can't expect them to learn to spell it either.
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
There is no smoking gun yet, Jeff. I agree that this is probably Al-Quada. However, anthrax is something that many, many people could produce...including many Americans. The anthrax being used thus far has not been weaponized. Anyone with a basic knowledge of microbiology and a barebones laboratory could have gotten this far.
There are people on this forum who have the necessary expertise.

The administration is being cautious. They know what the stakes are. If they find a smoking gun pointing to Al-Quada, then what? Personally, I would nuke the bastards and then nuke anyone who didn't like me nuking the bastards. I suspect that Bush would like to avoid the necessity of doing this. He's a kinder, gentler man than I.

The anthrax assaults are terrorism by definition.
However, which terrorists? Al-Quada? Domestic?
The Japanese nuts who used sarin in Tokyo? Once again, I don't think it matters. I would be sending personal messages to all terrorist groups everywhere-deadly messages.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
I agree. Technically, no smoking gun.

It is somewhat interesting that in this situation, the terrorists are afraid to admit responsibility. Usually these scum are happy to claim ownership of their attacks, but now ... they are afraid because they know we can and will destroy them where we find them.

I note this evening that some members of the administration have been on Cipro for 6 weeks.

We have been led down the garden path a bit here.

Regards from AZ
 

clem

Moderator
I seem to recall........

...that Al-Quada, or Osama or the Taliban said, after 09/11/01 that, "there was more to come". Now they didn't say what the "more" was and a lot of us might have assumed it to mean more airliner attacks.
So, I for one, feel that the Anthrax problem is from them and I expect "more" things to occure. I expect more bio & chemical attacks.

Understand this, these people will NEVER stop! Their sole purpose is to destroy America and Americans. We must kill them, and kill them all. It's the only way.

America is in a FIGHT TO THE DEATH with these people. So there should be no screwing around with them, so snap out of it people and just kill them.

Clem
USMC Retired
 

Fred Hansen

New member
Clem,

You could not possibly be more right. Make that correct in case someone misconstrues this post to be a critique of your political bent. After all, leftists only want to kill fellow Americans.
 

Master Blaster

New member
Alot of the information we are getting makes no sense.

1. The Anthrax is not weaponized.

My take if its used as a weapon then its weaponized.

2. This is Garden Variety Anthrax.

Funny I dont have any in my garden How about yours?

3. Weaponized anthrax is designed to be very lethal on humans in a short time and is easily inhaled. Not the type we have seen used.

Gee then why did those washington post office workers contract anthrax on thursday and drop dead on Sunday? It seems that their exposure was very brief and involved Very Very small amounts.

4. The anthrax strain used is sucsceptable to all antibiotics.

So why are the news outlets reporting that the woman postal worker is still running a low grade fever despite having taken the antibiotic Cipro for 2 weeks?


The government is not telling us the truth so we dont panic.

Dont believe anything they say.
 

Hard_Case

New member
Master Blaster:
1. Weaponized anthrax is processed so that the particles are extremely fine, do not clump, and are in the best possible configuration for maximum dispersal and infection. If it WERE wepaonized, we'd be looking at a lot more dead people. As I recall, a GRAM of weaponized anthrax was 'accidentally' released by a russian lab in the late 60s and over 100 people died within two to three days. That's weaponized.

2. Garden Variety meaning it is not a custom strain, containing specific characteristics to aid in it's infection. That indicates that it is probably not anthrax developed under a bio-weapons program such as the US or Russia has/had. Most likely cultivated from soil or animal samples and grown by a private lab/school, initially for scientific study.

3. We don't know how they handled it. If those workers found the envelope, saw the white power, and sniffed it for some kind of smell, that could easily explain their getting inhalation anthrax. Inhalation anthrax, unless caught in time, which is practically BEFORE symptoms occur, has a 90% fatality rate...much higher than cutaneous or gastro.

4. That doesn't say anything. Diseases are sometimes not as simple as' take a shot, it goes away'. Anthrax is a pretty nasty bug, and it takes time to kill, especially the inhalation form. The forms differ, as I understand it, not from the microbes themselves, but the methods of contact. Inhalation introduces the spores to the lungs, where they find direct bloodstream access and a prime growing area in I think the lymph nodes. Basically it is so deadly because your body is rapidly flooded with anthrax microbes, unlike the other forms where it takes much longer.

Heck....the anthrax VACCINE takes more than a week to administer (requires followup work) for full effectiveness.

I'll agree, there are things the gov is not disclosing to us, but I think you're looking in the right forest but the wrong tree. Heck, most of the stuff I learned above was printed in major newspapers a few days ago...
 

Fred Hansen

New member
I think that we aren't sure that the Anthrax is Al-Queda related the same way that we aren't sure that OBL gets his many venereal disease infections from goats. It could be from sheep, pigs, camels etc...;)


"Let's Roll " Todd Beamer, American hero
 

westex

New member
What if there was a sudden oubreak of anthrax in Afganistan that spread across the entire country and on over to Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and on and on? Couldn't it have been caused by a little ole bomb hitting a lab or two? Who would know for sure where it came from.

If I found one of those food packets we dropped over there I would sell it to my ex mother-in-law and buy a goat or a cheeseburger.:rolleyes:
 

tyme

Administrator
I was under the impression that when the government refers to "weaponized" anthrax, they're referring to genetically modified versions. People who are already under protection from taking the vaccine are not protected from such modified versions. Mostly just the military and agricultural workers have been given (err, have been allowed to take) the vaccine.
 

Mikul

New member
I remember the first outbreaks in Florida and everyone I knew said I was nuts for calling it a terrorist attack. "It's just a coincindence." Now, whenever someone else contracts it, I just tell them that another coincindence happened. Yes, I'm petty, but I take what I can get.

The thing that leads me to believe that those responsible for the anthrax mailings are the same as those who hijacked the planes is the TIMING. These letters were mailed within a week of the crashes. I suspect a third party would need longer than that to aquire anthrax and use the hijackings as a cover.

If another group wanted to do this, there's no reason they couldn't have done it years ago. Mailing anthrax is a safe way to inflict fear on people. The chances of getting caught are almost zero. The FBI has all but admitted that.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
I was under the impression that "weaponized" anthrax also could refer to the manner of preparation ... extremely fine powder for example.

However, to be quite frank about it, my impression is that our governments are bending over backwards to say that each of these incidences is not from terrorists ... because to say otherwise is to admit we must retaliate, and ... we can't figure out who sent the stuff. Yet.

Hopefully that will change.

Regards from AZ
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
Oh, Ho! So now it's "allowed to take" the anthrax vaccine. Just a few months ago, the black helicopter crowd was seething because military personnel were being REQUIRED to take anthrax vaccine.

The retaliation for the anthrax mailings will be severe. It behooves the government to not make a mistake. Think about what it would do to US prestige, interests, and the war effort if we conducted nuclear strikes at sites in Iraq as being the source of the anthrax and then found out it was a local lunatic.

That being said, there have been reports that what was sent to Senator Daschle was weaponised by the milling process to be an ultra fine powder. Reportedly only the US, Russian, and Iraqi governments possess this technology. With the relative instability in Russia over the past decade, it is possible that they are the ultimate source. It's narrowing down between them and Iraq. My money's on Iraq.
 

Dead

New member
I can NOT see how terrorists (domestics or otherwise) are NOT to blame for the anthrax attacks. I have seen what these Anthrax attacks have done to the greater NY metro area first hand. Too say "It isnt terrorist related" is the most blatant lie I have ever heard in my life! The fear in people's eyes when they are evacuated from where they work, watch HAZ MAT go in with their "space suits" on because of suspected anthrax is something I hope none of you ever have to experience or witness.

As far as "who" sent it, the list is VERY short indeed. I dont think there are too many countries that can produce "Weapons Grade" anthrax.

Also as far as the vaccine goes, it effectivness against the pulmonary form of anthrax is rather questionable! So all bets are off :(
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Gee. What do you know? You could knock those of us with tin foil hats over with a feather ... ;)

http://mirror.icnetwork.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=11431468&method=full

FACTORY'S TALIBAN BOSS HATED THE WEST

EXCLUSIVE: He disappeared 7 months ago with half his staff

From Gary Jones in Kabul


A deadly Taliban anthrax factory was found in Kabul by The Mirror yesterday.

The two-storey lab was used to create vaccines from highly dangerous wild bacteria. Its discovery fuels fears that Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror group is behind the US anthrax alert.

A source who worked at the plant said: "There's no doubt the Taliban were planning chemical or biological warfare against the West. I believe anthrax may have been first on their list."

The factory, which was bombed by US B-52s, was headed by anti-West mullah Qari Abdullah. He and about half of his staff vanished seven months ago. They are now believed to be in the US and Europe.

On a tour of the plant The Mirror saw an incubator to develop the bacteria, hundreds of test tubes ready for samples and the word "anthrax" scribbled on a container.

Yesterday in Washington the FBI were urgently investigating a suspected anthrax letter sent to Democrat Senator Patrick Leahy. Four people have died from the bug.

The factory, discovered by The Mirror yesterday, was officially set up for the production of vaccines for cattle using wild anthrax bacteria. But we learned that the Taliban became extremely proficient in using the bug.

It is now feared that rogue Talibans linked to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terror group could have developed anthrax spores into the form being used to terrify the US where four people have died from the bacteria.

Dr Abdul Quader Raoufi, 58, current vaccines chief at the Afghan factory, told us: "We'd rather have been running the labs on our own.

"But the mullahs were in charge of everything and we couldn't stop them learning about our activities. There was always a danger information could get into the wrong hands."

A source who worked at the factory added: "There's no doubt the Taliban were planning chemical or biological warfare against the West.

"I believe anthrax might have been first on their list."

We were alerted to the factory - the Institute of Veterinary Vaccine Production - by a highly-placed source in the Northern Alliance.

After being directed there by an official of the Ministry of Agriculture we were ushered through locked gates for a guided tour by Dr Raoufi. During US air strikes, 13 B-52 bombs landed all around the premises at Badram Bagh, outside Kabul, although none scored a direct hit.

It is not clear if the fighters deliberately targeted the lab. All the equipment needed to make vaccines was hidden away the day before the bombardment began.

Photographer Andy Stenning and I were shown every room. Glass was scattered throughout the building and doors blown off their hinges.

At the end of one corridor on the second floor we were led into a small office where our eyes were immediately drawn to the word "Anthrax", scribbled on a test-tube.

Hundreds of glass vessels were kept in a large cabinet in readiness for the latest batch of vaccines.

Elsewhere, there was a walk-in incubator to develop bacteria, a cold-room where vaccines were stored, a viral vaccine store and an expensive French-made viral vaccine harvesting machine.

On one door were the words "to be safe than sorry", the word "better" having fallen off.

The lab was first built in Charikar, in the northern province of Parwar, in 1993/4 with equipment from India.

A number of experiments were carried out, including the development of wild bacteria.

Three sheep were infected to study the results. Their carcasses were buried 30ft in desert land on the Shomali Plains away from possible contamination of water supplies.

Our source, who refused to be identified, said: "This was very dangerous work, though we knew what we were doing.

"We developed the technology of how to keep anthrax bacteria and how to develop it for use in vaccines.

"At the time, we created three million doses. It was essential work to keep our country's cattle healthy." The source said the present anthrax alert was "especially worrying", and added: "Someone with the necessary technical expertise is behind this evil."

Taliban political chiefs were quick to realise the potential of the lab after they came to power in 1996.

The following year they moved it from Charikar , where the Alliance had a stronghold, to Kabul.

At the time, the move surprised many as it was thought the Taliban had little interest in developing vaccines for use by the nation's farmers. In fact, Taliban soldiers destroyed huge tracts of fertile land so they could set up military bases without interference from a hostile local population.

Our source said: "The Taliban were very keen to take control of the laboratory.

"They moved the staff and all equipment down to the capital without warning. They wanted the laboratory there very badly."

Ten different kinds of vaccine were made at the unit. They were divided into four sections - pox vaccines, Newcastle, anaerobic and aerobic. Mullah Abdullah, previously famed for his ability to recite from the Koran, was brought in to head the operations.

Dr Raoufi said: "He and his Taliban superiors were interested in the technical detail of what happened here, although they had no background in science.

"They were also keen on the laboratory making money. Their priority was certainly not the interests of the people and the farming community at large.

"Sometimes many of their officials would turn up unannounced to see what we were doing.

"The minister himself would look round, then go away."

Dr Raoufi revealed that the vaccine institute, set up with help from the Red Cross and one of Afghanistan's most modern buildings, once had 45 staff.

But more than half left, many saying they meant to work abroad.

Dr Raoufi said: "I don't know what happened to these people.

"I'm told most went to work in America and Europe. They knew their skills were in demand elsewhere in the world." Referring to the disappearance of Mullah Abdullah, he added: "I've no idea what happened to him. He wasn't well liked. We didn't have a lot to do with him.

The production of vaccines at the Kabul factory was so successful that some samples were sent to Geneva where the Red Cross congratulated the Taliban on their work.

Veterinary expert Dr Raoufi - who was anti-Taliban but forced to wear their traditional turban and long beard - is dedicated to improving livestock conditions.

Yesterday he was at pains to reassure the West as it remained in the grip of bio-terrorism fears.

He said: "Anthrax production is under control. There is no danger because the vaccine is inactivated.

"These vaccines are to help people, not endanger them. I want to tell the world that what we are doing is safe. We are responsible."

However, he admitted that the Taliban could have obtained the knowledge to handle and develop anthrax. Dr Raoufi said: "Sadly, some use what is meant to be good for their own destructive ends."

I wonder if mullah Qari Abdullah knows anything about vertical stabilizers? ;) Just kidding.

Regards from AZ
 

EnochGale

New member
IMHO, the FBI is clueless on the source. Thus, they are dropping back to their last success and creating the UNIBOMBER again.
A weird loner, blah blah. Remember they couldn't find him and they did find Richard Jewell.

They have no idea but must look good. It is not coincidence that the terrorists rented a room from the tabloid owner's family.
They probably got PO'ed at them and sent them a letter also.

What a pile of poop! :rolleyes:
 

Gunter

New member
Now why would a lab in Afghanistan where people speak and write a language unintelligible to us westerners write "Anthrax" in english on a single test tube?
 
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