TV bull or real?

Number 6

Moderator
"Grey's Anatomy;" not "House"

"My particular favorite HOUSE was the one where the WWII re-enactor shot that guy with a "bazooka" and what they took out was an 81MM MORTAR SHELL!"

That was NOT "House" and it was a homemade bazooka. No doubt he found the plans in the back of an old Popular Mechanix :rolleyes:
 

JR47

Moderator
I see that someone else is a little "curious" about a 9mm JHP shedding it's jacket in a folded newspaper, then continuing into the eye of the target, killing him. The lead/gilding metal of the remains were misdiagnosed as a .32 ACP initially. A leap of faith was required to arrive at the 9mm theory, but, after finding the folded paper, with jacket still in it, they were able to catch the perp.:eek: :confused:
 

Number 6

Moderator
Has ANYONE ever seen

a NON-jacketed .32 ACP bullet?

Perhaps they are out there for the handful who reload in that caliber, but really...
 

Timeframe

New member
Sounds like it could happen.
http://www.imrser.org/PDF/JMRI.2004.colletti.pdf



August 2005



Four Years After The Tragedy:
The Wake Of An MRI Death.

By Robert Junk, AIA, AHRA and Tobias Gilk

Building codes, JCAHO requirements, architectural guidelines, ACR design standards, insuror credentialing / privileging processes... in the four years following the death of Michael Colombini, which of these hasn't implemented requirements for MRI patient safety in facility design for new magnetic resonance imaging facilities? Which of these groups, each charged with the safety and welfare of patients and the public, has failed to require facility safety standards for MRI suites in the last four years? Would you believe, all of them? The ACR has published its recommended 4-zone screening protocol, but it is not a requirement. And in it's 2004 update to the 2002 White Paper on MR Safety, the ACR stepped back from making any facility guidelines.

Four years ago, six-year-old Michael Colombini was receiving a post-operative MRI to verify that the neurosurgeons had been successful in removing a brain tumor. He may have been relieved that the surgery was over, or may have been thinking about the cool stories he could tell his first-grade classmates about the new scar on his head. Whatever he was thinking prior to that MRI, he probably thought that the worst was behind him.

According to both hospital and state reports, young Michael began having difficulty breathing while receiving that scan, so the anesthesiologist tried to give the boy supplemental oxygen. The medical oxygen that was piped into the MRI room wasn't part of the hospital's main system, but rather an independent storage cylinder and something was apparently wrong with the supply. Michael wasn't getting the oxygen he needed.

The MRI's oxygen system wasn't tied into the hospital's central alarm system, so nobody outside the MRI suite was immediately aware that there was even a problem. When the gas supply failed, both of the technologists on duty left the console to try and resolve the problem, leaving the access to the magnet room unattended by trained MR staff. The anesthesiologist, in the magnet room with the boy, was screaming for oxygen. As the level of panic escalated, a hospital staffer came into the MRI suite and noticed that there was a portable oxygen cylinder in the control room. That steel cylinder was brought into the magnet room where the MRI pulled it from the grip of whoever was carrying it and thrust it into the bore of the magnet, where the boy was at the time.

We all know how this story ends... the cylinder hit the boy in the head and he died from the injury.

Westchester Regional Medical Center was fined $22,000 by the State of New York, and they, the anesthesiologist, GE Medical Systems (now GE Healthcare) and the MRI service contractor are embroiled in a lawsuit that is still playing out.

And today, there are still MRI facilities with patchwork medical gas services. Some continue the prohibited (and dangerous) practice of snaking a length of tube through a waveguide in the control room wall, feeding oxygen to patients in the bore from a remote portable oxygen cylinder. Modular buildings for MRI continue to be plunked-down with independent services, as if they were their own little hospitals, some without centralized alarming systems. Haven't we learned from these mistakes?

The fact that MRI's attract steel cylinders is not news to anyone who has spent any time working around MRI. Why on Earth would there have been a portable steel cylinder immediately outside the magnet room? Even today hospitals continue to transport, store and accumulate unsafe materials in areas immediately outside magnet rooms! That cylinder missile incidents continue at MRI facilities on a regular basis isn't a testament to their inevitability, rather to our failure to implement the screening protocols that are out there.

That a hospital staffer could come into the MRI suite and get access to the steel cylinder points out the absence of effective access controls to the MRI suite. Why was the only substantive safety provision of the suite the presence of the technologists? And three years after the ACR White Paper on MR Safety, why is it that MR suites continue to be designed and built without the four-zone screening and access-control provisions?

Operationally, there were clearly failings that don't directly correspond to the design and construction of the facility. What MR-Safety training did the anesthesiologist have? Why did both techs leave the area? If the boy was coding, why wasn't he removed from the magnet room before attempting to treat him?

This tragedy resulted from a chain of events. By interrupting just one of these contributing factors, it might have been possible to prevent this death. We can train our staff and hope that they recall those lessons when the timing is critical, but human behavior is hard to predict. Perhaps the anesthesiologist had extensive MR safety training, but his clinical training which told him to establish that airway dictated his behavior that day. If human behavior is so variable, then what can we do to improve patient safety? The answer is, we can build it into our MRI facilities.

We have the information in front of us, in the form of the ACR White Paper on MR Safety. We can build a suite to support the screening protocols. We can create quarantine areas away from the magnet room to store unsafe ferrous materials. We can build-in access-controls to our suites. We can do a better job with the design of medical gas systems. Any one of these might have prevented this tragic accident, and certainly all of them would have made a difference.

We don't mean to suggest that facility safety is the only component to MR safety. We view MRI safety as a tripod, supported by clinical safety (device safety, clinical procedures, etc...), operational safety (patient and device screening, staff training, etc...), and facility safety (access controls, screening support, etc...). It is clear, however, that facility safety is infrequently analyzed and irregularly applied.

Without guidance from the professional and regulatory bodies with influence in MRI, the patchwork nature of facility safety will continue and, with the profound growth in industry utilization and magnet strengths, it may only be a matter of time before someone else dies in a similar MRI accident.

To avoid having your facility fall short on MRI safety, be sure to engage an architectural consultant that specializes in MRI suite design. MRI consultant fees range from less than $4,000 for a safety peer review to less than 1% of the overall equipment cost for full consulting services on an equipment upgrade.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To learn more about how to MRI suite designs can improve both patient safety and throughput, contact Junk Architects at (816) 472-7722.



Click here to return to the main newsletter page.
 

steelheart

Moderator
they said that they couldn't do MRI because the bullet "had a ferrous alloy" and the big magnet would move (pull out) the fragments, killing the patient.
Sounds like more TV gun "shine-ola." Was it a .38 magnum??:rolleyes:
 

Csspecs

New member
"Cop killer bullets"? Iron in the round sounds like those pistol rounds that were banned some time back.
 

Number 6

Moderator
And which were those?

"Iron in the round sounds like those pistol rounds that were banned some time back."

Steel-core and similarly constructed armor-piercing rounds have been banned for some time. Was there a specific cartridge or bullet you had in mind?
 

44 AMP

Staff
House (cont)

The bullets were called .38 Hollowpoints. The gun shown was a revolver. What I was looking for was if anyone knew of a commercially manufactured .38 (Spl) hollowpoint that had "ferrous" components (jacket/core), that would be within likelyhood of being used by the "gangbanger" in the show. I knew about the European 9mm steel jacket rounds, but in this show there were very clear about it being a .38 hollowpoint, and absolutely no mention of "copkiller" or armor piercing. So I was wondering if there was a round out there I hadn't heard of.

Oddjob, outstandingly detailed post, thank you for the indepth info. The unidentified .357 dia bullet appears to be FMJ, and looks like a truncated cone nose profile. Similar bullets have been made by US companies, as reloading components, intended for silhoutte shooting. Don't know if any have been sold as loaded ammo though. Possible.

In the show, the fragment wounds were depicted by clod spots, one above the cheek, and one above the eye, about midway between nose and left ear, a little closer to the ear, as I recall.

Mal H, my understanding of the ending of the 2nd episode is, disease caused by a parasite in the water used to grow the pot, not his tap water, enters system by being breathed in, does not affect rats, only birds and humans. Attacks brain. Discovered (in hospital) by "white matter" brain biopsy. Discoved by House at cop's apt, but too late to prevent "dangerously risky white matter brain biopsy". Omar Epps character comes out of it apparently ok, but at very end of show, House tells him to raise right leg and he raises left instead. (or maybe vice versa) Either way, we are left with the impression that there is still some brain problem (confusion of right and left). Show ends.

Thanks for all the info everyone.
 

Wyo Cowboy

New member
"I'm not a real doctor, but I play one on TV!"

Why anyone thinks that TV (or movie) scriptwriters and director try to be accurate and honest about ANY subject is beyond me. Is "ER" an accurate portrail of a REAL Emergency Department and EMS? Not based upon my 12 years of working as a Paramedic, nor holding a nurses license since 1983. Are any of the multitude of endangered aircraft shows or movies, such as "Air Force One", "Turbulence", "Airport 79", etc, remotely accurate? After 20,000+ hours of professional flying, ah... no! How about any of the current crop of law shows? Ask any judge and watch them roll on the floor, laughing. Consider your own profession and the last time which you have seen it correctly portrayed. AND, anyone here can point, adnauseam, to the continuously flagrent errors, poor handling, unsafe practices, and outright impossibilities commited on-screen with firearms.

Don't take medical advice from a TV show.
Don't take legal advice from a TV show.
Don't try to learn how to shoot from a TV show.
Don't try to learn how to fly from a TV show.
Don't try to learn how to be a cop from a TV show.
Don't try to study foreign policy from a TV show.
Don't try to .......... from a TV show!

Tom Cruise told Matt Lauer when challenged on his views of medication...
"I've studied this, and I know..." :eek:

"I'm not a real doctor, but I play one on TV... and I KNOW more than anyone else!" :barf:
 

FirstFreedom

Moderator
Tom Cruise doesn't even PLAY a doctor - he just plays pilots/race car drivers/veterans/spys/etc.

A steel oxygen tube being attracted to an MRI unit has little or nothing to do with a bullet being attracted to an MRI unit. But interesting and surprising that there IS ferrous material found in that unknown .357 south african bullet.
 

Odd Job

New member
@ First Freedom

The unknown bullet was given to me by a fellow club member here in London. It was one of about 12 assorted bullets of mosly .357s and .45s and it was the only ferrous one in the bunch.
The only other piece of information is that it has an exposed lead base. As a matter of interest, any bullet that you can attract with a small handheld magnet constitutes a definite deflection risk in the MRi unit, but the converse is not true: just because it doesn't attract with your handheld magnet does not mean it poses no risk in the scanner. The other thing I would like to find out one day is what percentage of the jacket has to be ferrous in order for something like a 9mm to deflect more than 45 degrees. All you need is a ferrous jacket and the bullet will deflect, regardless of whether the core is non-ferrous or not. I intend to test many more bullets (fired ones preferably) and if I can specify in radiological terms that their appearances are unique then I will be able to declare them deflection hazards (or not). This could influence pre-scanning protocols in the future.
 
yes you are correct it was "greys anatomy" They never showed the weapon but ive yet to find a complete set of plans for a 3.5" bazooka that were mil spec.

SW
 

mfree

New member
*ponder*

Seems to me that there may be a potential market for nonmagnetic, MRI-safe oxygen supply gear.

Ah, I love the smell of capitalism in the morning...

====
EDIT: nevermind, I googled some and found it. Cheaply, I might add. Doesn't that just warm the cockles of your heart to know that hospitals can be so in the dark?
 

Odd Job

New member
@ mfree

They already design and sell most hospital products in non-ferrous materials for MRI use. Here is one of many companies already doing it:

http://www.magmedix.com/products/respiratory/oxygen_and_gas_cylinders.html

The problem stems from keeping ferrous materials out of the MR room. Here is a website that has some examples of MRI accidents:

http://www.koppdevelopment.com/

I found an interesting story here about a policeman who was disarmed by an MR scanner:

http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/2000/Sep/0072.html

Apparently the firearm discharged a cartridge in the process.
 

Hunter Rose

New member
Heh... both my father and I are basically barred from ever having an MRI: result would most likely be death. He worked for close on 40 years as a polisher without a mask, and I've been working on and off at the same job the same way. And MRI would result in hamburger-chest...
 

Walter

New member
While the show premise is bull, MRI's really do interact with ferrous fragments. People with iron oxide (black) tattoos can get nasty burns in MRI machines and anyone with surgical pins or screws is verboten from entering.
Whethere it actually has enough power to pull them through flesh im not sure.

SW

I have a few chunks of shrapnel in me, from nearly 40 years ago. Several are
in my head. Does that mean I shouldn't do an MRI? I know they're still
there because one will occasionally show up on a dental X-ray.

Walter
 

UniversalFrost

New member
I've only ever seen one episode of House.

I died a little inside.

+1

The crap on TV nowdays!! I am stationed in Germany and don't get to see much stateside TV any more and when I went home on leave and I saw HOUSE, and all the new CSI's I turned the TV off. Buddy of mine brought over a copy of season 1 of OVER THERE and asked me if it was like what I went through on my 2 trips to Iraq and 1 to Afghanistan and I just told him that it was Hollywood at it's finest (do they really think that is what the military is like?). I mean these guys are having near misses every time they turn around. My unit took some heavy losses (my self included on the wounded will not return to duty roster), but nothing like what these guys are showing on TV. Heck the spec ops guys I know and worked with never went through that kinda crap. TV/Hollywood at its finest. :barf:
 
Top