TV bull or real?

44 AMP

Staff
Was watching a medical show the other night, and a cop was shot with a .38 hollowpoint. No brand mentioned. His vest stopped the round, but "fragments" entered his brain. OK, here is my question, they said that they couldn't do MRI because the bullet "had a ferrous alloy" and the big magnet would move (pull out) the fragments, killing the patient.

Now copper (guilding metal), and lead are non-ferrous, non-magnetic. I know there are some "steel" jacketed 9mm, but is there any .38 SPL ammo with "Steel" (magnetic) jackets, or is this just another example of a TV writer not doing their homework?
 
While the show premise is bull, MRI's really do interact with ferrous fragments. People with iron oxide (black) tattoos can get nasty burns in MRI machines and anyone with surgical pins or screws is verboten from entering.
Whethere it actually has enough power to pull them through flesh im not sure.

SW
 

miscusi

Moderator
my god my god,

you are talking about HOUSE, And that day, the story was TO BE CONTINUED... yeah, the cop was shot, the bullet fragments and enters near his eye socket.

So the show ends with omar epps about to die, and they got pigeon poop from the apartment.

I didnt make it back for the conclusion the next day, can someone please tell me what happens ?

PLEASE ? thank you.
 
My particular favorite HOUSE was the one where the WWII re-enactor shot that guy with a "bazooka" and what they took out was an 81MM MORTAR SHELL! No bull. well, TV bull i guess.

SW
 

P-990

New member
Yeah, I had a hard time with the "ferrous-metal bullet-jacket" thing too! I have some 8mm ammo around here somewhere that IS steel jacketed, but most handgun ammo is going to be guilding metal and lead. Non-ferrous.

Fun to think about though. More dramatic, I guess...
 

Mikeyboy

New member
Non Ferrous = copper, lead and brass = 99% of the bullets made. All of which are ok in a MRI because they are non magnetic. Steel casing (wolf ammo) maybe, but in the bullet itself??? Maybe a rifle round, but a pistol round not likely, especially a .38. The did not do their homework on the guns, but they are correct about MRI. I had one done and the nurses gave me the 3rd degree asking if I had any steel or iron in me. They said that even a guy who works in a shop using a grinder can have small fragments in his hands that would be torn out.
 

Mal H

Staff
I haven't watched that episode yet (it's Tivo'ed - I usually like the show). But it sure sounds like BS from what you say of the details. Another example of the usual Hollywood writers and no technical advisors.

While just about everything has magnetic properties (otherwise the MRI itself wouldn't work on bio tissue), an MRI will not usually move things around a lot if the item isn't ferromagnetic.

Surgical pins and screws are usually made of Titanium or other non-ferromagnetic metals and alloys for several reasons. So although they may interfere with the MRI in some ways, they won't be dragged out of the patient by the MRI machine.

The magnets in MRI's are extremely powerful superconducting magnets. There was an incident a few years ago where an oxygen tank was wheeled into an MRI room when a patient was in the cavity and the machine was operating. The tank was propelled at great speed into the cavity and killed the patient.
 

JR47

Moderator
Faulty logic on the part of the writers. The idea is solid, as a round COULD fragment against a Trauma Plate, but it would most likely have been a rifle round. In fact, I do believe that this has occurred in Iraq, or something very similar. Rifle rounds, especially those of Russian and Chinese manufacture, contain a steel penetrator core, even in non-AP rounds. Surgeons would be hesitant to use the MRI on the off chance that part of that core was included in the penetration into the skull.

Evidently, that idea somehow morphed into a pistol round. Of course, with the seventy-five round revolvers, and the two hundred round semi-auto, both of which are fully capable of sending victims completely through a cinderblock wall upon impact. It might just figure in. Ahhh, Hurleywood at it's finest. You know, if the best that these actors know is revealed in the movies they make, it's no wonder that they hate guns.I certainly wouldn't want to see my wife disintegrate upon being shot with such a hot .22 lr. blank!!!!:eek: :eek: :)
 

obiwan1

New member
I'm still trying to figure out how a newspaper can strip the jacket off a JHP 9mm and how it would be mistaken for a .32. (CSI NY) ;)
 

Handy

Moderator
While this was likely just a plot device, a quick internet search revealed both Russion and Swiss handgun ammo with copper washed steel jackets.

As these are doctors, not ballisticians, it is also possible that they would use ".38" as shorthand for any round in the .38/.380/9mm family. So a 9mm Mak round could easily be the one they are talking about.


The writers of House do a good job with their weekly medical mysteries, so I'm not going to be so harsh on them for creating a very unusual bullet to keep the plot interesting. All the information was accurate, except that steel .38 bullets are like hen's teeth.
 

carpfisher

New member
cops dies.
Epps lives but is apparently paralyzed or mis-wired. House tells him move his left toes, and his right moves!
continued.
 

44 AMP

Staff
thanks

What I was looking for was if anyone knew of .38 spl ammo that has a steel jacket, and so far, no one does. That is kind of what I thought. The show had the cop shot in the upper left chest, and fragments hit him in the head. Cop was clearly shot with a revolver. Later in the show, House fires "identical ammo" into the head of a corpse, and then puts it in the MRI. Fragments are pulled out, and hit the machine, damaging it.

I like House, and will forgive this minor flaw (they usually don't have much to do with guns), I just wanted to be sure they were wrong (and I wasn't:D ), as there was no "ferrous" .38 Spl ammo I knew of. This error comes no where near some of the mistakes on other shows, such as CSI, and Law & Order.

Just as I see so many obvious errors about firearms, I also do not get my medical or legal advice from the idiot box. But it can be fun to watch. Just don't take ANYTHING seriously.
 

svtruth

New member
Reglar ole Xray

will show the metal. Think of the last xray you saw from your dentist and all those bright white fillings.
 

Mal H

Staff
I just watched the episode. I will give them a little more credit than the data presented in this thread would allow. To the writer's credit, some of the doctors didn't think the bullet should have been ferromagnetic, which is the correct thinking. As 45 AMP said, House even fired a bullet into a corpse and put the corpse in the MRI to see if the bullet really was ferromagnetic and more importantly to see if the MRI would cause damage from the bullet fragments - it did, big time.

Still very Hollywood, but at least it's not quite as ridiculous as it seemed at first.

svtruth - The MRI was going to be used to see if there were lesions or other abnormalities in the brain, not to see the bullet fragments. They already knew the fragments were in there and where they were from x-rays taken.

BTW, it looked like the perp in the first scene had an SP101 .38 Spcl. At least they got that right.

And the bullet fired (Matrix type of scene) wasn't spinning wildly like so many slow motion bullets seem to do in movies and TV, e.g. CSI. (Depending on the twist rate, it should revolve only once every 2 or 3 feet from a revolver.) So they got that right also.

I'm still confused about the ending of the 2nd episode. They've got some 'splainin' to do.
 

Odd Job

New member
Well folks, you may be interested to know that I am doing some research into bullets and MRI units. In fact last year I collected a few samples of fired and unfired bullets and crawled into the bore of a 1.5T machine here in London. Obviously I had a special enclosure for the bullet, one that I made myself from perspex, wood and brass screws. Here is a picture of the enclosure, positioned just outside the bore of the unit:

attachment.php


The bullet that is deflecting so markedly is a SJHP Norma in 9mmP. I pulled it out of a friend's cartridge in South Africa, not realising at the time that it was ferrous otherwise I would have recorded more details. I don't know anything else about that ammunition. But what you can see is that there is a marked deflection towards the magnet and it is dangerous (anything more than 45 degrees between plumb and deflector line is dangerous). Another Norma that was a SJ truncated cone was also dangerously ferrous.

Now to show you how hardcore I am ;) I took pictures with my digital camera, almost in the bore of the machine. I was holding the camera by hand and the battery is highly ferrous. I can tell you my grip was quite good becuase if I let the camera go it would be very expensive to scrape it off the inside of the bore! As I got closer with the camera the magnetic field affected the electronics. See the picture below. At this stage the image suffered from extreme noise and the sensor went to blue. A few more centimetres closer and the zoom operated by itself and a few more centimetres closer the camera suffered a total failure that could not be fixed by switching off and on. I had to leave it for 5 minutes before I could switch it on again. So we are certainly dealing with a really strong magnet, one that makes those junkyard cranes look like a lucky-packet magnet. Note that in the picture below I rotated the jig 90 degrees because I was looking for lateral deflection in the center of the bore.

attachment.php


Back to the bullets, I tested about 20 different types and found 4 that were very dangerous and one that had a very small deflection (only a few degrees). The one that deflected only a few degrees was an early Eliminator in 9mmP. That was back in the days when they were only being sold in SA and they were called 'Eliminator.' I tested newer versions and there is no deflection (at least not on the 9mmP versions). There must have been a ferrous impurity in the early version.
The three dangerous ones (all had more than 45 degree deflection) were:

1) Sellier and Bellot steel jacketed and steel cored Tokarev bullet
2) Norma SJHP in 9mmP
3) Norma SJ truncated cone in 9mmP
4) An unidentified bullet in .357

Here is a picture of the unknown bullet (handed to me by a friend here at a shooting range in London). He doesn't know what it is, perhaps someone here can suggest possible manufacturers...

attachment.php


The other thing is, we have to consider the fact that custom bullet makers may use ferrous materials as inserts or for jacketing. So in terms of the possibility of a .380 being ferrous, I have to say it is possible (even if the chances are slim).

Whether the bullet, upon fragmenting against a vest, could fling a daughter fragment into the guy's head is another matter. What was the supposed entry point according to the show? Did it go through the orbit or did it enter the arterial circulation at the neck and then become a vascular embolus? Regardless of what happened, the main problem in a situation like that is the recognition by radiological means of the type of ammunition with a view to determining whether it has ferrous components or not. In other words it is one thing to identify on X-ray an intact Black Talon bullet (knowing that it is non-ferrous) and it is quite another to try to evaluate only a fragmnet of a projectile on X-ray with a view to determining its type for ferrous assessment. If such a fragment is in the leg or arm, the radiographer may advance the patient little by little into the scanner and stop immediately if the patient signals any discomfort. But in the head, there is no room for messing around. There is too much at stake, unlike a fragment embedded in muscle. If they cannot determine whether it is ferrous or not they will treat it as if it is ferrous and proceed from there. In the head that means more than likely no scan. No sir.
 

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