Tough Decision to Make

[leprechaun50]

In my younger days I tended bar is a small town, but some of the patrons were some real bad boys. I even had to remove patrons who were drunk and carrying guns. Those were not good times, but I never, ever carried at work. My gun was in my car outside, and many nights I was glad that it was.

Take the good advice of the knowledgable folks that are trying to help you, and DON'T carry in a bar.

 

[Corrections Cop]

Sounds like a bad idea. Wait to you get legal and get your cpl. Sounds like you are trying to reach for to many loop holes so you can semi legal carry. IMHO I think like others have said if it comes down to it and something happens it wont look good on you, and it might be hard to convince a jury of all the legal loop holes. Try taking to self defense classes, and carry some mace. If you are going to carry, carry legally and follow the letter of the law. Using loop holes and things like that are bound to get you into trouble sooner or later.

 

[cas700850]

I'm an Ohio lawyer, and know nothing of Florida law. I'm also a lawyer with 12 years of experience as a prosecutor. From that perspective, if I was advising my son in a situation like yours, I would help him choose pepper spray, a good flashlight, a kubotan, and NOo HANDGUN. Playing in the gray areas means that when something goes wrong, be it something as simply as someone seeing the handgun, you'll be fighting a criminal charge. Winning is still costly, and losing is devestating. Be smart when choosing venues, and your actions leaving those venues. Carry protection devices legal for you to carry in and out of "work," and save your money for a good handgun and carry permit when you turn 21.

 

[armoredman]

Do you play heavy metal? Can you make a pair of OC foggers in thigh holsters part of your costume? Dress/paint 'em up but keep 'em functional, with double safety snaps due to the movement on stage.
Second idea - foggers disguised as sound equipment in strategic places across the stage, along with a FAST exit strategy. If your worried about getting rushed on the stage, set up your back door, and wave a fogger behind you as you run. Very few people are interested in running into a wall of pepper spray. Might want to make some sort of mask part of the costume that can be flipped up into place in a hurry.

Ya know, Woody Herman never had these type of problems...

 

[BigD_in_FL]

My legal counsel was able to cite very specific case law. One was the case of a volunteer government secretary in a town hall who was found "at his place of business" even though he neither owned it nor drew a paycheck, because it was a place where he had to show up, perform duties, and report to an authority.

This person was a regular volunteer at a specific location - you, however, are a itinerant worker, in fact, no different than a migrant farm worker getting paid for the day - you are NOT an employee - even a volunteer person can be an employee - just like the civilians who drive sheriff cars for crime patrol.

You are underage, you can't even drink there, are a temporary worker, not being on any payroll, you do not own the establishment.

I think your lawyer is really trying to use you as a test case - and if you have issues and lose, you lose those rights forever. You are not old enough to buy a handgun or even the ammo for one, yet you want to open carry one in a bar?

REALLY?? dude, at 18 you have a LOT to learn about the way the REAL works works versus any imaginary theoretical one does. Maturity does not always come with age and experience, but you're not close..sorry JMO

Wish you well, but as someone who does carry in FL, you are just asking for more legal hassle than your young soul can handle

 

[Tucker 1371]

Seriously, Gun + Bar = BAD IDEA. Say you have to use it, then you will most likely go to court, you get the wrong prosecutor and the wrong judge and for the rest of your life you will NEVER be able to buy or legally own a firearm. Is it worth it?

If the advice others have posted in this thread is still leaving you debating what to do let me suggest this. Spray yourself with the OC spray, you will have no doubt as to its effectiveness. It is a miserable experience, it takes about 10 seconds for it to fully egulf your face and sinuses with an excruciating burning sensation, thats if it didnt get in your eyes, then it's nearly instant. You will feel sunburnt anywhere it touched for one to three days, when you take a shower afterward it will flare back up and feel just like you did immediately after getting sprayed. It completely takes your attention off of whatever you had in mind at the time and all you can think is "make my face stop burning!"

It's my backup carry option when I have to go in a gun free zone and I trust it. Don't risk it, stick with the OC til you're 21 and even then DON'T DON'T DON'T ever carry in a bar.

 

[Frank Ettin]

My legal counsel was able to cite very specific case law. ....I believe my legal advice is sound....

You might also want to ask your legal counsel what it's likely to cost you to get you out of a jam (1) if you're charged with unlawfully carrying a gun; and/or (2) if you wind up having to use your gun.

There might be the case law described, but that doesn't give you an automatic pass. That case law only gives you (or actually your lawyer) something to argue to a judge or, if you're really unlucky, a court of appeals. And that sort of thing can add up to a lot of billable hours for your lawyer. Can you write a check for $10,000 or $20,000 or $50,000 or $100,000 or perhaps even more, to pay your legal expenses?

 

[Psychedelic Bang]

I'm a musician. I'm going to give you the, "Crash Course 101," in how a bar, or its owner feels about you.

1. You do not own the bar.

2. You do not work for the bar.

3. You suck.

4. If you have a #10 Sexy Girl for a bass player, you get a couple of free beers.

5. If the bar has not paid you before the show, you are not getting paid after the show.

I'm also living in Florida. You can not bring your concealed weapon into a bar. Get a car safe.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

^^^^
There ya go

I HAVE a CWP and when I go to relax in Cedar Key, the gun stays someplace other than on my person as a bar is verboten - I AM old enough (unlike you OP) so stop trying to be a test case - you will flunk the final exam

Have a bouncer walk you to your car with your stuff if you are a solo act

Good luck in trying to hit the big time

 

[Doyle]

Let me get this straight. You're 17 years old and already trying to find a way around the law to carry a concealed weapon. I'd say you've got some more growing up to do.

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm going to give you the, "Crash Course 101," in how a bar, or its owner feels about you.

That's a wee bit harsh, but it is true. Should something go wrong, the owner/promoter/bartender is going to throw you to the wolves. He's already got a volatile situation and tons of potential liability every night. He doesn't want any more, especially from musicians.

If your group brings in crowds, he'll say it's because he installed new lighting. If the crowds wane, he'll say it's because your group is somehow responsible.

Maybe there's some statutory loophole. He doesn't care. If you're down to using a gun in self-defense, your witnesses are all intoxicated, and the bartender's going to claim you started it. Responding officers, a prosecutor, and a grand jury are going to be hard to sway to your side of the story.

 

[Dashunde]

Seriously man... persue other venues to play your music.
I mean it, dont take guns into bars. We cant say it more clearly.

You should evaluate where your long-term quality of life and safety really is.
I'm absolutely certain your 18 year old hide will survive countless years of playing in bars, I'm far from certain you would do well in prison.

 

[dakota.potts]

Hey guys, lots of responses I haven't read yet since I want to get this hammered out real quick.

I have decided not to do so. My reasoning is this: If a forum of firearms enthusiasts, many every day carriers and some even lawyers give me (at best) a "maybe", I wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell if I had to use it and it got to a jury. Or if I somehow got caught and arrested and tried. I may got off, I may not.

I suppose I will keep my pepper spray and knife and my most important tool: my brain. I'll just have to be aware and have a plan. Perhaps I'll seek out some kind of martial art/knife training as well. If I had a regular 9-5 or part time job, say at a retail establishment (and parked my car on company property), this would not be a question. However, add in the fact that there is alcohol on premises (both legal and ethical problems), that many would be one off gigs, that our sheriff and judges are anti-gun (or neutral on their best day) and it's really just not worth taking.

I do think it's pathetic that as a citizen and an adult capable of marrying, owning a business, becoming a pilot, etc. I still have to beg for my rights. I'm expected to pay taxes and would be tried as an adult with full responsibility if I committed a crime, as our social contract acknowledges, but our country doesn't recognize my rights in return for my end of the bargain. For better or for worse, outside of activism, I am not the one willing to be arrested to make that statement, so I'll just do the best I can until then. Worse, I am made to feel (not here, but elsewhere) as if I am a criminal for even asking the question of whether I'm allowed to carry for lawful purposes, even from other gun owners. Treated like I am a Mafia member or something by anybody in the know that I ask about such a question.

Thanks in earnest for the responses. This has been one of the most level headed mediums I have been able to access for this. Both options have caused me a lot of anxiety and even though I know I'll always have to be careful to take care of me and mine, I feel a lot better being able to simply pick an option and not have to worry or wonder.

 

[dakota.potts]

A couple other points to address as personal points:

I've never ingested illegal substances and never had anything to drink outside of my home (a glass inside, at that)

I've never been in a physical altercation with somebody, thankfully.

I don't feel necessarily that the bars I play are dangerous -- but the fact that I will sometimes be working alone walking down some shady allies carrying $1,000 instruments seems to me like a danger zone. Of course, there's also the fact that after I played a certain venue 8 times or so I found out the owner had quite the reputation for dealing cocaine to people during the course of his shows.

An "interventionist" mindset was brought up. I'm not talking about a random stranger. I'm talking about my immediate family or my girlfriend, perhaps my bandmates even who are very close friends. I certainly wouldn't try to intervene in any kind of a dispute. If it were just me I had to look out for I would feel a lot better than having to take care of the ones around me that I love, and that is the situation I refer to being afraid to be unable to stop.

I say these things not to persuade anybody that it's a better idea (I've really decided it's not) but just so I don't leave the impression of a rock and rolling hooligan itching for a fight and taking in any illegal substance I can get my hands on (obvious caricature for effect). I live a clean life, I desire no trouble and I don't want to be the big guy on campus. At bars, I want to show up, play my set, make the bar owner money, and get home with some money and no trouble done. With my rock band, I want to play my heart out to an appreciative audience of 5 people or 100 and then get home that night and go to bed and sleep in until noon the next day. I just need to be able to take care of my own and I wish our laws would allow me more freedom in my options for doing so. I can certainly respect that some fights just aren't worth it and this seems to be one of them.

 

[JimmyR]

Dakota, I read a lot of your threads, so you know I'm not gonna bash you for wanting to carry. I think choosing to carry as an 18 year old under possibly obscure case law would be a bad idea, even if it is legal- two very different things.

Tom made a very salient point that deserves repeating:

Furthermore, if you get caught, it causes a scene. Musicians live and die by two things: reputation and callbacks. You're going to quickly lose both in such a case. A club owner, manager, or bandleader doesn't want the trouble.

I know there are times when I can carry, but it would be a bad idea because of the harm it might cause to my reputation, relationships, and employment. I think others here do the same. Some people post stupid things on Facebook, some people protest funerals. They're legal, just not really good ideas. I think your carrying a gun while playing, while it may be legal, just might be a bad idea.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If I had a regular 9-5 or part time job, say at a retail establishment (and parked my car on company property), this would not be a question.

I think it is still a question. This is not something you want (or need) to decide in a rush. Don't set a deadline by which to decide -- take however much time is needed to properly do your homework, get the necessary information, and THEN make a decision.

As to your statement that I quoted above, go back and read Spats McGee's post #17. Note that he -- a lawyer -- believes that the case law exception applies to ONE of several (possibly competing) statutes. That doesn't IMHO make for a very compelling argument.

I took very, VERY brief look at FL law, and there is some caselaw out there that indicates that an employee is at "his place of business" for purposes of at least one of FL's various "weapon carrying" statutes. I'm still not sure it extends to independent contractors, but I have to admit that there's some chance of it.

Case law is tricky. It's not written down in the statutes, it's a collection of how various judges over the years have interpreted and applied the statutes that are written down in the books. If you spend any time reading the competing pleadings that lawyers submit in cases, you'll see that both sides are able to cite all kinds of cases that appear to support their side of the issue. It is then up to the judge to sort out which of the competing citations he/she thinks are the most compelling and the most relevant.

YOUR problem is that you don't really want to be in the position of funding some lawyer's research while you cool your heels in jail, waiting for your trial. Did you pay the attorney with whom you spoke, or is he a friend or a friend-of-a-friend who gave you an off-the-cuff answer? His assertion didn't sound very encouraging to me. Parse it down to essentials, and it comes out sounding (to me) like he said, "When you get arrested, I think I can get you off." I'm a senior citizen and I wouldn't bet what remains of my future on a sucker bet like that. You're not quite 18 -- you have a LOT of future to risk over what most of us here seem to agree appears to be rather shakey advice.

Be careful about knives, too. Knives are "weapons." I have no idea what Florida law says abut knives, but I do know (since I have one) that Florida's carry permit is not a handgun carry permit, it is a concealed weapons permit. So you need to be sure that any knife you might want to carry isn't going to be just as big a problem as a firearm.

 

[Revoltella]

The best you could hope for to do this is if the bar owner knows you're carrying, permits it and is willing to consider you his employee. Barring all that, you're just asking for trouble.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

The OP has made up his mind.