Tough Decision to Make

[dakota.potts]

I tried to keep it out of my last thread because my last thread was just about decent pistols to carry for this purpose. However, now is the time to get actual advice on the topic that I've been debating for a long time.

I've talked to a firearms lawyer in Florida who's informed me that when I turn 18 I'll be able to carry a firearm open or concealed in my place of business without a license. My place of business is bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. playing music and my legal counsel has told me that based on Florida statues and case law he is confident in telling me that these are my place of business as a contractor and that this would supercede ordinances is that prohibit carrying in bars as it states that it supercedes all conflicting law.

I am extremely disappointed that as an 18 year old (in 8 days anyways) I have to beg, bargain, and plead for my rights to carry. I feel I should have the right to defend myself and want to be able to do so at every opportunity. I would carry everywhere outside my home if legally allowed. I really do feel a "need" to be armed everywhere I go to defend myself and my loved ones.

I want to get a pocket pistol and some kind of good concealment method and carry at my place of business. But I am worried. The lawyer I contacted told me that although it is legal, a law enforcement officer will not be expected to know the intricacies of the law enough to know so and I may still be arrested if it becomes known somehow.

I practice regularly, study the laws regularly, and mentally prepare myself for the responsibility of carrying regularly. I am not perfect in any way but I do everything I can to leave the house ready to defend myself. I already carry pepper spray and a knife.

My biggest question: Is one peace of mind worth swapping for another? I worry about the stress of not being able to print in the slightest or let anybody know I have it. I know this already should be but I worry that the slightest hint could cause me a lot of hassle. I worry about my reputation if somebody finds out and there is a hassle even if I'm legally in the right. I asked on a forum of musicians if anybody had made a similar choice and by the responses you'd think I'd ask about sacrificing babies and kittens. I worry most about the situation where I need it and it's not there. I know there's pepper spray and knives and I have heavy guitars to use as an impact weapon but I don't know if I could live with something happening because I didn't have a tool to stop it.

So, faced with the decision, what would you decide to do? If I choose to do so, should I tell my associates (band members and regular musical partners) that I choose to do so? I am leaning very heavily towards no but am wondering about possible ethical implications.

Finally, if you say yes I should, what do you recommend as far as concealment? I'm playing hard rock/metal so moving around and jumping a lot on stage, while my other (better paying) jobs are classical or acoustic shows where I could be wearing anything from casual to suit and tie outfits and may be sitting with my leg propped up for extended periods of time. I am thinking a bellyband, Sneaky Pete, or an under the shirt shoulder holster. I am worried about my shirt riding over an IWB if I perform too vigorously and after trying to pocket some pistols at the shop I came to the conclusion it just won't work with my dress and size.

Thanks all for helping in what's been a hard decision for me. As long as you're respectful (not calling me a paranoid, dangerous, scary child with mental issues afraid of my own shadow and compensating for something as happened on my other forum) I'm looking forward to advice from both ends.

Dakota

 

[JimmyR]

Because you are essentially using a loophole in Florida law in order to carry a concealed weapon, I personally would not. As much research as you have done, consulting with legal representation, and planning, I honestly think you are potentially asking for trouble. While your lawyer may think you are in the good, in the end, it's not his opinion that matters, but a potential jury/judge that makes the final call if it escalates to that point. And no, you should not tell ANYONE you are carrying, due to your (IMHO) questionable legal status.

I honestly think your risks outnumber the benefits of carrying a weapon. You carry a weapon to protect yourself and your loved ones, but I can't help but feel you are endangering your own freedom and livlihood by carrying.

 

[Tucker 1371]

I've never been a bouncer at a bar, but I've been in plenty of bars and have several friends who are bouncers. From what I've seen and stories they've told me there's very few situations where a firearm would be preferable to less than lethal options. I have been OC sprayed for a security job and it is one of the most miserable experiences I've ever had and I have a pretty high tolerance for pain and discomfort. I would say stick with the OC, it should be more than enough to handle even the most drunk and unruly bar patron.

That and what Jimmy R said.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

So you play music in bars and feel the need to protect yourself from the patrons? Or is it something else?. If that is the case, maybe you need to play nicer establishments....., there are plenty in St. A.
No matter your viewpoint, it is NOT your establishment, you are a 1099 worker. I really don't think too many patrons are going to warm up to seeing you strutting/strumming while OCing either.

Now, you feel the need for a gun for when the bar closes and you're packing gear out the back door into your van, put one on stage in a bag with your stuff

 

[Spats McGee]

Caveat: I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, nor am I licensed in Florida. I have also done exactly zero legal research on Florida law on this issue. This commentary is not legal advice, and it's worth exactly what you've paid for it.

With that out of the way, I have some reservations about taking the position that a bar in which you play is "your place of business." I would take "your place of business" to mean "a place of business in which you have an ownerhship or proprietary interest." I'm also concerned that a jury will agree with my definition, unless presented with some very clear law that agrees with your lawyer's. I mean no disrepesct to your lawyer, and he or she may well be right, but proceed with caution.

Also, consider the fact that bars tend to be crowded places, even on a slow night. While I suspect that you're focused on the walk to the car, loading equipment in and out of the bar, etc., also consider the potential consequences of conflict inside the bar. At those ranges, with that many people packed in, I'm not sure a firearm is really your best bet. A shoot-through could land you in some very costly litigation, even if you wind up winning the lawsuit in the long run.

 

[Don P]

I want to get a pocket pistol and some kind of good concealment method and carry at my place of business. But I am worried. The lawyer I contacted told me that although it is legal

By doing the above you are committing a felony WITHOUT A CONCEAL CARRY PERMIT.

I worry about my reputation if somebody finds out and there is a hassle even if I'm legally in the right

Your word in the above "IF"
In your post you state more than once you DO NOT OWN THE BAR that you are a traveling musician. You're trying to circumvent/loophole the law. I think you were not totally truthfully with legal council and if you were you have been given bad advice.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I've talked to a firearms lawyer in Florida who's informed me that when I turn 18 I'll be able to carry a firearm open or concealed in my place of business without a license. My place of business is bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. playing music and my legal counsel has told me that based on Florida statues and case law he is confident in telling me that these are my place of business as a contractor and that this would supercede ordinances is that prohibit carrying in bars as it states that it supercedes all conflicting law.

Spats McGee beat me to it, but this is important enough to pile on. I don't think FL law is different from the laws of other states in this regard: Your "place of business" refers to a business that YOU own and operate. If you OWN a pizza shop, the brick-and-mortar space in which you operate the pizza business is your place of business. If you OWN an accounting firm, the space in which you conduct your accounting practice is your "place of business."

If you are employed by moderator Brian Pfleuger to make pizzas in HIS pizza shop, that shop is NOT your "place of business," it is your place of employment. That's a critical distinction.

I see no way a bar that pays you and your band to come in and play a gig could possibly be construed as YOUR place of business. Your name is not on the door as permittee, your name is not on the liquor license, your name is not on the deed or lease or mortgage for the building.

You have to be careful in asking questions. Be sure you ask them properly, and don't try to phrase the question so as to get the answer you want/hope to hear. I would be interested to know exactly what you asked this attorney. Did you make it clear to him that YOU do not own these bars where you play? It sounds like you did and that he is trying to be helpful by stretching the law for you.

IMHO, I think he is completely wrong. Find another attorney and ask the same question. My work is as an independent consultant. My "place of business" is the bedroom in my home where I have my business computer set up and my file cabinets located. When I go to a client's location, I am not taking MY place of business with me, I am visiting THEIR place of business. If I were to rent a small office (which I did at one time), my place of business would be that office, even though much of my work is conducted on client's premises (THEIR places of business).

 

[Bozz10mm]

Don't do it. Bars and guns don't mix and the legal ramifications of carrying a concealed weapon in a bar can be more than just a hassle. Well, in Texas anyway.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Let's stick with answering the question and legal issues. If your post is edited or missing, you know why.

 

[Tom Servo]

I'd get a second opinion on your legal counsel.

790.06(12) bans carry in:

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

What constitutes the "portion of the establishment" is going to be at the discretion of the arresting officer. As others have mentioned, he may or may not know every wrinkle of the law, but he will bristle at the fact that you do not have a carry permit.

Furthermore, if you get caught, it causes a scene. Musicians live and die by two things: reputation and callbacks. You're going to quickly lose both in such a case. A club owner, manager, or bandleader doesn't want the trouble.

Lastly, I'm not sure you'd meet the legal definition of a "contractor."

I'm not a lawyer, but I am a guy who was in your position once.

 

[North East Redneck]

I would recommend that you do not carry a gun in a bar. I believe you got bad legal advice.

 

[Theohazard]

OP, I think it's a very bad idea for you to carry in bars, whether legal or not.

I spent a lot of time in bars when I was younger; usually working as a bouncer or a server, but also as a patron. Every altercation I saw was fueled by alcohol and they were almost all at least partially escalated by everyone involved. Even if one person started the altercation, the reaction of the other person involved almost always determined whether the situation got worse or just ended there.

If you're not drinking and you're not looking for trouble and you're willing to walk away from any altercation, you're not likely to get in a conflict; fights in bars tend to be testosterone-fueled status fights. And with so many people around, the chance that a fight will get out of hand is pretty low, especially if one of the persons fighting is an unwilling participant.

OP, if you feel your life is in danger enough that you're willing to risk jail time and a lifetime prohibition from legally owning a firearm, and you're willing to risk the collateral damage that is likely to occur from firing a gun in a crowded bar setting, I would reconsider your band's choice of performing venues.

 

[colbad]

I think you need a new lawyer.

I seriously question the advice you were given. Unless you own the establishment or leasing it I doubt you can claim any right by virtue of playing a gig there or as any kind of an independant contractor.

There might be some kind of extension of the right of the owner as to HIS private property that extends to AUTHORIZED employees he designates for security purposes. However, unless the owner of the establishment is insane, I don't see him giving and 18 year old with no training any kind of permission to carry on his premises as an employee. That is pretty much suicide by law suit, not to mention the insurance issues.

I would also not think that if I were using the free wyfi at McD's to do my business I could claim any "right" by virtue of a claim that it is "my" place of business. You are by analogy akin to my landscaper who works on my property. I guarantee he has absolutely no rights extending to him from my property no matter what he might claim as his place of employment. You are walking down a dangerous road my friend.

 

[dakota.potts]

My legal counsel was able to cite very specific case law. One was the case of a volunteer government secretary in a town hall who was found "at his place of business" even though he neither owned it nor drew a paycheck, because it was a place where he had to show up, perform duties, and report to an authority.

I believe my legal advice is sound.

I'm asking for personal advice. I appreciate what I've gotten. I find it odd that people who are normally advocates of carrying everywhere say that I should just play different venues if I feel unsafe. Bad things happen everywhere. Stabbings, muggings, robbings, shootings. How many times have I heard "if we knew when we need it, we just wouldn't be there" on this site? Anyways, I appreciate that advice, I am honestly just surprised by that reaction.

Any proponents or people who would/believe I should? I've got at least a week to consider but probably much longer before I decide to if I go through with it at all.

 

[g.willikers]

So, if your mind is made up about it, of what value is asking more replies from those who would agree with you?
I've worked in bars and most of the fights seem to be with fists, feet, chairs and bottles.
In other words, up close and very personal.
Unless you are proficient in close quarters gun use, your gun probably won't even come into play.
And, if the place is busy enough for music and dancing, bullets flying around would be frowned upon.
As will be the idea of knocking off the customers.
How about tasers and mace, instead?
And a really bright flashlight for negotiating the parking lot.

 

[Tom Servo]

My legal counsel was able to cite very specific case law.

That's all well and good, but case law only (possibly) helps you in the courtroom. It does not shield you from arrest or other consequences.

If you get caught, at the very least expect consequences in your professional life. At worst, you could be prosecuted, and you could lose, since your defense would hinge on technicalities and loopholes.

I find it odd that people who are normally advocates of carrying everywhere say that I should just play different venues if I feel unsafe.

Those two pieces of advice are not mutually exclusive. Conflict avoidance is the first tier of self-defense.

 

[Spats McGee]

AGAIN: Don't take this as legal advice. I'm not licensed down there!

I took very, VERY brief look at FL law, and there is some caselaw out there that indicates that an employee is at "his place of business" for purposes of at least one of FL's various "weapon carrying" statutes. I'm still not sure it extends to independent contractors, but I have to admit that there's some chance of it.

That still doesn't make it a good idea. (& yes, I've spent my share of nights in bars: as patron, bartender, even security (on extremely rare occasions many moons ago))

 

[colbad]

You might be technically right and you may even eventually win in court IF you have enough money to press the issue. If you don't have the big bucks for the lawyer to press your case should you be arrested, you could be technically correct and also technically in jail trying to prove it. Also, if I was the bar owner and found you with a gun in my bar under any circumstances.....that would be your last gig in my establishment.

I think you got a lot of good advice on this site, now its up to you to make and live with the decision. One word of advice before I sign off. IF you decide to carry the gun, don't have so much as a hint of alcohol on your breath or ingest any other illegal substance musicians are know for.

 

[Theohazard]

I find it odd that people who are normally advocates of carrying everywhere say that I should just play different venues if I feel unsafe. Bad things happen everywhere. Stabbings, muggings, robbings, shootings. How many times have I heard "if we knew when we need it, we just wouldn't be there" on this site? Anyways, I appreciate that advice, I am honestly just surprised by that reaction.

My reaction has to do mostly with your age and the specific venues where you would be carrying. Young males in bar settings tend to get in altercations that have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense and everything to do with alcohol, aggression, honor, and perceived slights to that honor.

I was in many bar fights and several large street fights in my late teens and early twenties (most were right after I got out of the Marine Corps). In every single instance alcohol and male aggression were involved. I was rarely the instigator but I was always a willing participant who escalated the situation. I'm glad I didn't carry a gun back in those days; I probably wouldn't have used it, but it sure wouldn't have helped the situations I was in.

OP, you may be much more peaceful than I was back then, but you're still young. Carrying a gun in a place like a bar - a place where non-lethal status fights are far more common - requires a much higher level of judgement than in most other places. There are very few violent situations you might come across in a bar where drawing a gun will be a good idea, and there are many violent situations that occur in a bar where drawing your gun will be a terrible idea.

I carry everywhere I can carry legally. The places and the manner in which I carry are completely, no questions asked, legal. And I'm in my mid-thirties and I have a family; I have a few years of extra judgement and I'm far less hot-headed than most younger men.

If you feel the need to carry and you've determined that it's legal, then that's your right. But considering its legality is not 100% clear and is ultimately up to someone else's judgement and interpretation of the law, you're nowhere near as cut-and-dried legal as someone like me who has a carry permit. That, and your age combined with the venues in which you would be carrying, lead me to strongly suggest that you consider not carrying there.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not as a lawyer but as a psychologist - sorry if you don't like such advice - your statement

I know there's pepper spray and knives and I have heavy guitars to use as an impact weapon but I don't know if I could live with something happening because I didn't have a tool to stop it.

is really not sensible. First, if something did happen and you did not intervene, you might suffer some upset. However, people have lived through and survived absolute horror and dealt with the mental consequences. The 'I can't live with myself' mantra is common on the gun internet but mental health hooey. You can live with yourself so the statement has no value in the decision.

Next, it implies an interventionist mindset. If you have been reading the responsible gun world literature and if you do get training, you do not carry to intervene in disputes - certainly not in bar fights or even hold ups. That is not a good starting point to carry. If something happening means to defend yourself and other from harm that's fine but you would be better off hitting the deck in the vast majority of bar fights.