Top 10 Combat Rifles - Do you agree?

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joshua

New member
I'm sure most of you have seen the show, here is the website of the Top 10 Combat Rifles. I still don't agree with the one they pick as #1. In fact I think the Steyr AUG should be at 2nd if not 3rd. The M14 should be higher than the Garand. I think this is more of a popularity contest than the actual performance of each rifles. This is how they ranked them.

1. AK-47
2. M16
3. LEE-ENFIELD SMLE
4. M1 GARAND
5. FN FAL
6. MAUSER K98k CARBINE
7. STEYR AUG
8. 1903 SPRINGFIELD
9. STURMGEWEHR 44
10. M14


http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/rifles/slideshow/slideshow.html

josh
 
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RockyMtnTactical

New member
No two people will agree on what the top 10 combat rifles are. I will say this, the M14 shouldn't even be on the list IMO. It's hardly been fielded by anyone, it didn't change anything for anyone (unlike it's predeccessor).

Overall though, the list does make mention of some great, innovative designs.
 
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Wyatt.45

New member
Garand

The M14 is a great rifle, but you would not have it, if it were not for the M1 Garand. The M1 should have been higher because it helped us Americans in World War II dramatically, instead of a slow bolt action like the Springfield we had a quick eight shot rifle. Out of all the rifles on this list, the M1 Garand helped Americans the most. I'm not saying the M1 is the best on this list, but it sure proved itself. The Ak-47 is on the top of the list because it is the most produced assault rifle in the world, very rugged and is one mean mother.
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
Personally I don't think the M-14 should be on the list at all.

It was never very well received as a combat rifle, and in fact saw precious little combat before it was cycled out.

It's made its name for itself in the hands of target shooters and, lately, as a speciality heavy squad weapon or a sharpshooter/sniper's weapon.

All of the others have serious time in the hands of troops engaged in serious, long-term combat action.

Looking at it purely objectively, and trying to strip away any sense of "Hey, I'm an American, my rifle should be higher on the list...", I thing the AK is a pretty solid choice as a No. 1 contender.

However, I think the Lee Enfield has a serious right to contend for the No. 1 spot, and it wouldn't take a great leap to get me to name it No. 1.

I also don't think that the Springfield 1903 should be on that list. Its impact as a combat rifle was also relatively marginal. Unlike most of the others on the list, it offered no great advances in the technology.

Yes, the United States used it during WW I and some more or less minor skirmishes, but its combat time was rather limited compared to most of the others. During World War I nearly double the number of Model 1917 Enfield were issued to American troops.

Plus, the Springfield was really nothing more than a Mauser derivative (to be fair, the Enfield was also based liberally on the Mauser). Using that criteria, one could make a strong case for the Arisaka as being one of the great combat rifles of all time since it served for close to 50 years.

No, I'd have to replace the Springfield with the Moisin-Nagant rifle. In fact, I think leaving the Moisin-Nagant off the list is a horrendous oversight.

Steyr AUG? Can't really imagine why it's on the list.
 
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Eghad

New member
I would have go with the AK-47 as numero uno also. Its simple technologically, and it will operate in harsh conditions. There are not to many places on earth you could go and not find a AK-47. I think the SG 44 could stand to be moved up in the ranks as it set a new standard in combat weapons. I would probably have to move the M1 up to number 2 with the SMLE a solid third. When General Patton one of the finest professional soldiers our nation has produced called the M1 the greatest battle implement ever devised who can argue with that.

Plus, the Springfield was really nothing more than a Mauser derivative (to be fair, the Enfield was also based liberally on the Mauser). Using that criteria, one could make a strong case for the Arisaka as being one of the great combat rifles of all time since it served for close to 50 years.
Click to expand...

The production of the Springfield was held up for a while due to the concern of patent infringement. We made a deal where so much royalty was paid on those patents per item up to a max of $250,000 I think. There was another patent squabble before WWI. I think the Germans wanted $220,000 more but we held out then WWI started. We ended up paying $400,000 to Germany after WWI when the dispute was settled.
 
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Dirty_Harry

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I think the m14 should be higher

If we are talking best 10 combat rifles....the Garand woul not beat the M14, is is better in every way. But if we are talking about most used (which I presume we are) then yes the Garand should be there. Dont get me wrong....I like the Garand, but I don't have one and I do have an M14. Also th M16 variants are better than the AK47.
 
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esldude

New member
Guess it depends on what criteria is used.

Most used in armed conflict, most used in numbers, longest service, most important in its time, most capable in its time or most capable now. All valid things, but not really any sense in trying to go by all of them.

I fail to see any reason under any criteria to have the Aug on there. Its a bullpup that seems not to have succeeded. You can say that about lots like the weapon that was to have replaced the M16, but apparently won't.

The Springfield 1903 should go as being another Mauser. It makes no sense either.

The M14, though I love them dearly, is merely like an upgrade to the Garand. And one not entirely suitable as it turned out.

And the Mosin-Nagant is an obvious oversight.

That isn't even mentioning if you should include assault and combat rifles together. What about sub-guns if you do that. Like the Russian models in WWII, Thompson 45's, M1 carbines, etc. etc. Didn't they serve as important a role? Some could say the various subguns in 7.62x25mm put out in great numbers is what saved Leningrad.

All in all I don't think much of the list period. But then I was suckered into commenting on it wasn't I?
 
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SavageCheesecake

New member
Eh, most gun publications leave the Mosin-Nagant out in the cold as an old commie weapon, but with its proliferation and extensive use, especially as a sniper rifle in the second world war, it should be somewhere. Maybe replacing the M14, as great as it is.

I personally dont see why the Steyr Aug and STG44 made the list. Sure, theyre both sort of "firsts," but their adoption worldwide is very limited and theres a pile of complaints on both of them.

And why the Springfield 1903? Limited impact on anything. Mauser derivative. Both Britain and the US have paid royalties to Germany for the Enfield and for the Spring. Of course... no one has pointed this out yet, but the list includes all primary service rifles for the US since WW1, with the exception of the M1 Carbine and the BAR. Bias anyone? Lol. Hardly fair to other countries and rifles.

Also, while I can see why its there, I doubt the M14 should be on a list of the top 10 combat rifles.

SMLE rating above both the Mauser K98k and the M1 Garand? Please. If the SMLE should grace that list at all it should be fairly low on it.

A couple suggestions for rifles that would better replace the 3 I mentioned would be...

SKS - Seriously, why isnt this on there?
Mosin-Nagant, anyone?

And if theyre going to put the STG44 on that list I wonder why they didnt consider the SVT40 for it, considering how desperately German soldiers wanted to capture them and put them to use themselves. Personally I'd leave it off the list too though.

The list is clearly bias in that they didnt decide on a particular standard for measuring a rifles general success. The method I would use is - how many were put in military service?
 
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joshua

New member
Certainly the criteria to form this list needs to be assessed. All they said was which took top honors. I was basing my criteria as a target shooter and some competition type of shooting, my bad. I'm thinking they started with a list of criteria to form the ranking, but it got mudded up as they went along. josh
 
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Seabass

New member
I know it isn't a rifle, but the some other sub-guns and carbines have been mentioned and this one hasn't been yet.
What about the UZI? Also has made a big impact.Lots of country's have had these in service for at least a few years. Can't just not mention it guys...
 
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SR420

New member
The top 10 as I see it...

1. M1 GARAND
2. M14
3. Moisin-Nagant
4. M16
5. LEE-ENFIELD SMLE
6. MAUSER K98k CARBINE
7. AK-47
8. 1903 SPRINGFIELD
9. STURMGEWEHR 44
10. FN FAL

The best MBR is the M14, but we would not have this awesome rifle without
the M1 Garand and that's why I placed te Garand at the top of the list.
 
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Lonestar.45

New member
I'd say their list is pretty close. The AK-47 has been a front line battle weapon for, what, 50+ years? I think the only other weapon in history that may approach or beat that is the British Brown Bess musket. The Enfield, Garand, and M-16, and Mauser should all be right up there behind it.

You've got to look at the amount of time they have spent as front line weapons and their track records, not just certain features of what might make them the best. My list:

1. AK-47
2. M16
3. LEE-ENFIELD SMLE
4. M1 GARAND
5. K98 Mauser
6. FN FAL
7. Steyr Aug
8. Sturmgewehr 44
9. M14
10. Mosin Nagant

Notice I left off the '03 Springfield. It's a fine rifle and probably deserves to be in the top 5 or 6, BUT, let's be honest, it was a copy of the Mauser. Springfield was even sued for patent infringement by Mauser.

The Sturmgewehr earns a spot simply because of the ground breaking design, without which we may not have seen the Ak-47 or subsequent assault rifles.
 
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FirstFreedom

Moderator
Well, since it's apparently implicit that we're talking greatest *for their time*, not greatest overall right now, as compared to all modern rifles, then there are a few oversights IMO, most notably the Spencer repeating rifle of 1860 (or the Henry repeater for that matter), which was light-years ahead of the competition's front-stuffers during the American civil war, quite unlike the relative similarity, based on very incremental improvements of early 20th century rifles, like Mauser/Enfield etc. The Spencer should probably be #1.
 
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SR420

New member
RockyMtnTactical: I will say this, the M14 shouldn't even be on the list IMO.
It's hardly been fielded by anyone, it didn't change anything for anyone (unlike it's predeccessor).
Click to expand...

The M14 is currently fielded by the US military around the world.
It's numbers in active service are growing.
As a matter of fact, the M14 has never been out of service in the US military.

The M14 should be at the very top of the list. #1
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
"The M14 is currently fielded by the US military around the world.
It's numbers in active service are growing.
As a matter of fact, the M14 has never been out of service in the US military."

And, with the exception of about 3 years in Vietnam, it was never used as a primary front-line combat rifle, either.

While it's true that the M14 has been in continuous "service" since its adoption in the 1950s, its life as America's stated front-line combat rifle was less than a decade, I believe, with fewer than 400,000 made for government consumption.

If you do the math, that doesn't even come close to fully arming our standing military in the 1960s. It wasn't well received by many troops in Vietnam, who found it heavy, unweidly in the jungle, and almost totally uncontrollable in automatic fire for those that were used that way.

Virtually all of its life the M-14 has been a special purpose weapon -- sniper, marksman, mine killer -- and that is where the M-14 has truly found its military niche, and there are probably fewer than 5,000 M14s in military service today.

As I alluded, there's a LOT of "If it's American, it's the best there ever was" on that particular list, and it just doesn't stand up to either the smell test or scrutiny.
 
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