I'll dig up the info and edit this post or start a new thread but as to the Grizzly/Brown bear - the "Mountain Man" in question killed many big bears with I believe a brace of .38 Caliber black powder revolvers and a large "Bowie knife" - He would empty his revolvers into the bear and stab it in the heart when it stood up. How is that for excitement.
thurty-thurty winnie for all na game
- Thread starter rickyjames
- Start date
Where is the 30-30 not legal to hunt with in the US? It easily meets the requirements of most states that allow centerfire rifles to be used for hunting. If anything some states want you to use a lesser powerful weapon for hunting. The 30-30 is not a BB gun dude. A 170gr 30-30 load will take down anything a 30/06 will only at shorter ranges. Its a legit .30 caliber rifle that shoots deep penetrating expanding projectiles. The bullet design of the 30-30 was perfected half a century ago. It just plain works. The only reason why a 30/06 or a 300 Win Mag is better is because of the extended range. However there are lots of cases of the really powerful calibers failing at shorter ranges due to the high velocity. You're asking a lot of a bullet to perform well at ranges from 100-500 yards. It either won't expand at the longer ranges or blow apart at short ranges. The 30-30 is designed to work within a certain range and it works well at that range. With a well-placed shot and good bullet selection the 30-30 will get the job done.
Alaska has very straightforward hunting regulations in regards to firearms. You can use practically anything to hunt in Alaska. Very few weapons are illegal to use in Alaska. In my homestate of Colorado the 30-30 easily meets the hunting requirements. Show me in which states its illegal to use a 30-30. I said before in my post, I think its questionable using the 30-30 for Bison or the big bears of Alaska but I don't find that its unethical to use a 30-30 for anything else on this content. Used within its proper range the 30-30 will get the job done. A .30 caliber rifle is not a joke. All the 30/06 does is launch similar projectiles about 600 fps faster. It extends the range, it doesn't necessarily kill better.
oneounceload
Moderator
Except that additional speed translates into more Energy as well, resulting in better penetration. While a 30-30 may or may not be legal, it certainly is not the best choice for some of the animals in questions - a 45-70 in a lever gun would more like the ticket....
I'll add another thing. I remember some years back reading an account of a bear attack either in Alaska or the Yukon/NW area of Canada. A guy had killed a Moose with a 338 Win Mag. The next day he returned to the area to pack out what remained of it. He brought a 30-30 rifle. A bear was in the area and was guarding the kill. After getting to the area, the man was charged by the bear and he fired two shots at the bear and killed it. The load was a 170 gr Nosler Partition. One shot fully penetrated the bears skull and another broke a shoulder and penetrated well into the chest area. Both were good solid kill shots. Those rounds performed exactly how you would them to. They held together and penetrated deep into the bear and stopped it in its tracks.
The man said he would probably be dead if he had brought the 338 Win Mag instead of the 30-30 lever action rifle. He said there is no way he could have fired two accurate shots at the charging bear with such a powerful rifle. The lever action 30-30 also handles much faster and cycles faster. Sometimes bigger isn't better. The thing about a bear attack is that you usually only get one good shot or two at best. Bears cover a lot ground pretty fast and the only shots that can immediately bring a bear down is a head shot or a broken shoulder. Both are really hard shots to make on a charging bear. I see it brought up all the time that you need a big Magnum rifle cartridge for bear protection. The thing is, if your first shot misses, you are dead. You won't get off another shot.
The man said he would probably be dead if he had brought the 338 Win Mag instead of the 30-30 lever action rifle. He said there is no way he could have fired two accurate shots at the charging bear with such a powerful rifle. The lever action 30-30 also handles much faster and cycles faster. Sometimes bigger isn't better. The thing about a bear attack is that you usually only get one good shot or two at best. Bears cover a lot ground pretty fast and the only shots that can immediately bring a bear down is a head shot or a broken shoulder. Both are really hard shots to make on a charging bear. I see it brought up all the time that you need a big Magnum rifle cartridge for bear protection. The thing is, if your first shot misses, you are dead. You won't get off another shot.
oneounceload, do you want to go ahead and show me where its been documented that increased velocity results in increased penetration. From what I've seen the opposite is true. Increased velocity results in bullet fragmentation and increased expansion. Both hinder penetration. I've seen so many guys complain about the performance of their Magnum rifle cartridges at shorter ranges. Their bullets are blowing up on contact due to that velocity. It also ruins a lot of meat due to hydrostatic shock.
So many people the myth that more velocity equals more penetration. I've heard people say that an AR-15 is a poor choice for home defense due to over-penetration. Actually that slug going 3,000 fps blows apart on impact. High velocity is really hard on bullets. It is actually one of the safest loads you can use because it busts apart after hitting just about anything. The loads that penetrate a lot are the heavy and slower projectiles.
I didn't say that the 30-30 is the best choice for hunting the animals, just saying that it will work if the hunter uses the right bullet and does his part and sticks to the effective range of the 30-30 cartridge. The 30-06 has more range than the 30-30. It won't kill anything any better within the range of the 30-30. Its been killing Big Game for a century. Just because there are now more powerful cartridges and bullet designs have improved doesn't make the animals any harder to kill than they were half a century ago. The reason why a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag is a better choice is because you have fewer limitations. Heavier bullets and extended range. If you are going to pay big bucks to hunt in another state you don't want to me limited to only 150 yards and only certain shot selections. That's the difference. Within 150 yards the 30-30 is a very capable big game cartridge with the right bullet selection.
So many people the myth that more velocity equals more penetration. I've heard people say that an AR-15 is a poor choice for home defense due to over-penetration. Actually that slug going 3,000 fps blows apart on impact. High velocity is really hard on bullets. It is actually one of the safest loads you can use because it busts apart after hitting just about anything. The loads that penetrate a lot are the heavy and slower projectiles.
I didn't say that the 30-30 is the best choice for hunting the animals, just saying that it will work if the hunter uses the right bullet and does his part and sticks to the effective range of the 30-30 cartridge. The 30-06 has more range than the 30-30. It won't kill anything any better within the range of the 30-30. Its been killing Big Game for a century. Just because there are now more powerful cartridges and bullet designs have improved doesn't make the animals any harder to kill than they were half a century ago. The reason why a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag is a better choice is because you have fewer limitations. Heavier bullets and extended range. If you are going to pay big bucks to hunt in another state you don't want to me limited to only 150 yards and only certain shot selections. That's the difference. Within 150 yards the 30-30 is a very capable big game cartridge with the right bullet selection.
oneounceload
Moderator
I said increased velocity leads to increased energy. The energy will lead to increased penetration - assuming a properly constructed bullet - and a 30-30 having a FN bullet is also not as aerodynamic.
If you want to use a 30-30 - go ahead. For many possibilities, especially in the East - it should do fine. Having lived out West for several decades, I'll take my 7mm mag.
Compare any reliable reloading manual and see the energy differences that 600fps can make
If you want to use a 30-30 - go ahead. For many possibilities, especially in the East - it should do fine. Having lived out West for several decades, I'll take my 7mm mag.
Compare any reliable reloading manual and see the energy differences that 600fps can make
Like other people keep pointing out the bow and arrow killed everything in north america. So this being the case the 30-30 certainly can.
All the advantages that you see on paper don't translate to real life, IMHO.
When you get past 200 yds then certain cartridges start to have an advantage. But how much of that is being able to hit the target (bullet drop) then the damage done by the bullet?
Yes, magnums start to give you an advantage at distance. But does that make up for hunting ability? No, you still must put the bullet in the vitals.
All the advantages that you see on paper don't translate to real life, IMHO.
When you get past 200 yds then certain cartridges start to have an advantage. But how much of that is being able to hit the target (bullet drop) then the damage done by the bullet?
Yes, magnums start to give you an advantage at distance. But does that make up for hunting ability? No, you still must put the bullet in the vitals.
Yes oneounceload, like I said the 30-30 is sacrificed in range not in killing power. What did I just tell you man? That extra energy of the more powerful cartridges means that they can retain thier killing power at a longer distance. Way to backtrack and go around in circles. The 30-06 has more range and with today's bonded heavy bullets can certainly be a much better choice than the 30-30. Most hunters I know don't spend the big bucks for premium hunting ammo for the 30-06 though. Why does such ammo exist? Probably because what I said is true. If you launch a bullet at more than 2600-2700fps it will fragment horribly at close range and not penetrate reliably. This has never been a problem with the 30-30. What does the blunt nose have to do with anything, when I clearly stated that the 30-30s main limitation is its range? Its blunt nose bullets don't retain much energy past 150-200 yards. That same blunt nose is also known for picture perfect expansion on game though. It doesn't take a huge massive upset of the bullet profile for it to mushroom, which tends to lead to high retained weight and reliable pentration. The 30-30 just plain works. Its not sexy and isn't fun to write about but like I said, the bullet design for this load was perfected about a half century ago and it just plain works. It doesn't need a sexy bullet design due to the velocities of the cartridge.
I never said that I would only use the 30-30 or that its the best weapon. Don't put words in my mouth. Only that when working within its limits its a completely effective cartridge on big game. Sheesh. If a 30-30 was all I had I would have no problem using it on all North American game except Big Bears or Bison. I would also think twice about using it on Moose. The fact remains that the 30-30 has been used on all kinds of game on this continent for quite some time. The animals that have fallen to the 30-30 didn't know that they weren't supposed to die to such a lowly caliber.
I never said that I would only use the 30-30 or that its the best weapon. Don't put words in my mouth. Only that when working within its limits its a completely effective cartridge on big game. Sheesh. If a 30-30 was all I had I would have no problem using it on all North American game except Big Bears or Bison. I would also think twice about using it on Moose. The fact remains that the 30-30 has been used on all kinds of game on this continent for quite some time. The animals that have fallen to the 30-30 didn't know that they weren't supposed to die to such a lowly caliber.
oneounceload
Moderator
And a 223, working within it's limits will work as well.....we're agreeing from two different perspectives.....have fun with it.....
A 223 works well on Big Game? Maybe head shots. Now you are just getting ridiculous. I'm trying to have a logical discussion about this. There is a much smaller difference between a 30-30 and the typical Big Game loads than there is between said loads and the 223. That is just absurd. The 30-30 is a legit .30 caliber rifle bullet with adequate sectional density to get the job done. We aren't talking about the 30 carbine or somethign like that. The 30-30 fires legit rifle bullets in excess of 2000 fps. The .223 is a varmint round that doesn't have enough sectional density to get the job done. If you read my post earlier you would have seen where I was actually talking about the 223 and how it doesn't penetrate. A 223 fired at an Elk would leave an unbelievable wound channel about 12-14" into the animal. It wouldn't penetrate enough to do enough damage to the vital organs to get a quick and ethical kill. The animal would die a slow and long death.
Do you really think the 223 and 30-30 are in the same class when it comes to big game? Why did you bring that up?
I really don't see what your point is. The 223 has a lot of limitations when it comes to big game hunting. Only a head or spine shot would be an ethical shot. A shot to the vitals with a 223 would cause a lot of tissue damage but would ultimately leave the animal to suffer a long death from bleeding out because the bullet likely wouldn't do enough damage to the vital organs.That just isn't the case with a 30-30.
The question isn't whether or not the 30-30 is an ideal cartridge for these animals. Its whether or not the cartridge is sufficient within its range and limitations. That answer is an unequivocal yes. A well placed 30-30 bullet of proper construction will drop big game reliably. The 223 simply doesn't belong in this conversation. That is just ridiculous. Somewhere along the way with the advent of Magnum rifle cartridges and premium bullets people have developed the idea that a 30-30 is an air rifle or something. All the deer, elk, and moose that have been killed by the 30-30 are still dead. They didn't know that they were supposed to get right back up because they weren't shot with a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag. They are still dead. Somebody ate them. They aren't coming back. What part of that don't you understand. If it worked in the past it will still work today. The catch is that the 30-30 is limited to 150-200 yards at most. Within that range its a very viable cartridge though. The 30-06 adds another 150 yards of range or so. The 300 Win Mag even more.
Do you really think the 223 and 30-30 are in the same class when it comes to big game? Why did you bring that up?
I really don't see what your point is. The 223 has a lot of limitations when it comes to big game hunting. Only a head or spine shot would be an ethical shot. A shot to the vitals with a 223 would cause a lot of tissue damage but would ultimately leave the animal to suffer a long death from bleeding out because the bullet likely wouldn't do enough damage to the vital organs.That just isn't the case with a 30-30.
The question isn't whether or not the 30-30 is an ideal cartridge for these animals. Its whether or not the cartridge is sufficient within its range and limitations. That answer is an unequivocal yes. A well placed 30-30 bullet of proper construction will drop big game reliably. The 223 simply doesn't belong in this conversation. That is just ridiculous. Somewhere along the way with the advent of Magnum rifle cartridges and premium bullets people have developed the idea that a 30-30 is an air rifle or something. All the deer, elk, and moose that have been killed by the 30-30 are still dead. They didn't know that they were supposed to get right back up because they weren't shot with a 30-06 or a 300 Win Mag. They are still dead. Somebody ate them. They aren't coming back. What part of that don't you understand. If it worked in the past it will still work today. The catch is that the 30-30 is limited to 150-200 yards at most. Within that range its a very viable cartridge though. The 30-06 adds another 150 yards of range or so. The 300 Win Mag even more.
Just a couple of field reports here....
The 30-30 with common ammunition still kills well at 235 yards or so. About 15 years ago I whacked a forkhorn at that distance with basic 150 grain WW ammo, and knocked a thumb-sized chunk of bone out the off-side shoulder.
The .223, loaded properly and shot well, is no slouch either. I slow it down a tad, with 55 grain bullets, for medium game; you could accomplish the same thing with tough bullets.
The 30 WCF of course lets you take shots on deer, etc. which you wouldn't take with any .223 softpoint. There's a lot to be said for 150-170 grains of bullet at speeds that don't obliterate it in the first six inches of tissue.
The 30-30 with common ammunition still kills well at 235 yards or so. About 15 years ago I whacked a forkhorn at that distance with basic 150 grain WW ammo, and knocked a thumb-sized chunk of bone out the off-side shoulder.
The .223, loaded properly and shot well, is no slouch either. I slow it down a tad, with 55 grain bullets, for medium game; you could accomplish the same thing with tough bullets.
The 30 WCF of course lets you take shots on deer, etc. which you wouldn't take with any .223 softpoint. There's a lot to be said for 150-170 grains of bullet at speeds that don't obliterate it in the first six inches of tissue.
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Gunplummer
New member
I never shot a deer with a 30.30 but still take out my .303 Savage that I load to 30.30 specs. It kills deer dead with a 170 grain bullet. I hear the same thing about my 7.62x39 bolt gun. I use 150 grain bullets in that and probably kills them even deader, if that is possible.
danbnimble
New member
well....
there are them guys way back when that would have given up their beads and buffalo hides for anything that went bang.
Shot my first white tail with a Marlin lever action 30-30. Still got it, don't shoot it anymore but it gets a cleaning and a fresh coating of RIG twice a year. Fine rifle.
Sure I believe you could kill Grizzes and polars with a 30-30. Might wanna make sure the magazine is full with a couple extra in your pocket just in case.
there are them guys way back when that would have given up their beads and buffalo hides for anything that went bang.
Shot my first white tail with a Marlin lever action 30-30. Still got it, don't shoot it anymore but it gets a cleaning and a fresh coating of RIG twice a year. Fine rifle.
Sure I believe you could kill Grizzes and polars with a 30-30. Might wanna make sure the magazine is full with a couple extra in your pocket just in case.
Comparison
Check this out!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
Now, if a 7mm Mauser can drop an elephant, I am sure that a .30-30 can handle bears, moose and elk.
Check this out!
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
Now, if a 7mm Mauser can drop an elephant, I am sure that a .30-30 can handle bears, moose and elk.
30-30 is too small, but a 44 magnum is okay. I will take the 30-30 any day.
I still would have a bad time bringing a 30-30 on an Alaskan Grizzly or polar bear hunt. Something about a 10 thousand dollar hunt and a firearm that is marginal at best just does not add up to good sense. Perhaps if my Daddy saw fit for me to be born with a silver spoon in my mouth I would consider such a stunt.
I still would have a bad time bringing a 30-30 on an Alaskan Grizzly or polar bear hunt. Something about a 10 thousand dollar hunt and a firearm that is marginal at best just does not add up to good sense. Perhaps if my Daddy saw fit for me to be born with a silver spoon in my mouth I would consider such a stunt.
Good point, Roy. When you look at the ballistics, bullet profile etc. of the 173 grain 7x57 Mauser solid, and the success Bell had with it on elephants; it's easy to imagine a similar* load for the 30 WCF. IF, that is, we can just get a proper bullet! Say, 185 grains, full metal jacket, flat point? Maybe we need to find somebody with Corbin equipment to crank us out a batch?
*I'll admit that the Mauser enjoys a slightly better ballistic profile. I am also not advocating an elefunt-hunt with the 30-30, or intentionally starting grizzly fights with it etc.
*I'll admit that the Mauser enjoys a slightly better ballistic profile. I am also not advocating an elefunt-hunt with the 30-30, or intentionally starting grizzly fights with it etc.
30-30remchester
New member
What I would like to see but dont know how to go about it, is a poll from all who have ACTUALLY shot any game animal larger than deer with the 30-30. In the poll let the shooter tell us his satisfaction or dissatisfaction, number of shots, range, and animal. Anybody know how to pull this off?
OK.
* 30-30 Winchester 94, Remington CoreLokt 170 HP. 200+ lbs hog, shot through the shoulders, dropped within 25 yds. Good performance, IMO.
* Same 30-30 Winchester 94, same Remington CoreLokt 170 HP ammo, 150-ish lbs axis deer, shot at the base of the throat, turned and ran, piled up within 25 yds (I know you said no deer, but this one was not your average deer). Good perfromance, IMO.
* Same 30-30 Winchester 94, Winchester 150 gr Silvertips, 250-ish lbs black bear, shot broadside through the shoulders, dropped right there, tried to get up, another shot anchored him.
* 30-30 Winchester 94, Remington CoreLokt 170 HP. 200+ lbs hog, shot through the shoulders, dropped within 25 yds. Good performance, IMO.
* Same 30-30 Winchester 94, same Remington CoreLokt 170 HP ammo, 150-ish lbs axis deer, shot at the base of the throat, turned and ran, piled up within 25 yds (I know you said no deer, but this one was not your average deer). Good perfromance, IMO.
* Same 30-30 Winchester 94, Winchester 150 gr Silvertips, 250-ish lbs black bear, shot broadside through the shoulders, dropped right there, tried to get up, another shot anchored him.
30-30remchester
New member
Well done SCORCH however was hoping to hear from some 500 pound plus animals taken. Could you give details? Did the bullets exit? What was the range you shot the animals at? What damage was done to the animal? Any first hand obsevations would be helpful.