Thoughts on Safeties...
- Thread starter 44 AMP
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Other than revolvers and lever-action rifles, I've never owned guns that didn't have a manually operated safety.
I prefer those that fall readily under the strong-hand thumb, but as a lefty I've had to adapt to other styles.
I prefer the frame-mounted safety that is swept downward to disengage, a la 1911, Hi-Power, CZ75, etc. I do not like slide-mounted safeties that have to be pushed up to disengage - Beretta 92, S&W metal frames - as it's un-ergonomic, and can compromise loading and malfunction clearing.
For long guns, I prefer a tang safety, as it's handy to either hand. Cross-bolt safeties are a hassle, unless they're reversible.
AR safeties I can work with my trigger finger, and it's not really much more difficult than using the thumb.
Due to all the different types of safeties on the market, having any manual safety makes the gun somewhat proprietary to the user, so in a self-defense situation involving a gun-grab - is there a safety? Where is the safety? How is the safety operated? It can buy you some time to take action.
I prefer those that fall readily under the strong-hand thumb, but as a lefty I've had to adapt to other styles.
I prefer the frame-mounted safety that is swept downward to disengage, a la 1911, Hi-Power, CZ75, etc. I do not like slide-mounted safeties that have to be pushed up to disengage - Beretta 92, S&W metal frames - as it's un-ergonomic, and can compromise loading and malfunction clearing.
For long guns, I prefer a tang safety, as it's handy to either hand. Cross-bolt safeties are a hassle, unless they're reversible.
AR safeties I can work with my trigger finger, and it's not really much more difficult than using the thumb.
Due to all the different types of safeties on the market, having any manual safety makes the gun somewhat proprietary to the user, so in a self-defense situation involving a gun-grab - is there a safety? Where is the safety? How is the safety operated? It can buy you some time to take action.
my preference is a frame mounted safety (vs. a slide mounted safety) that is easily engaged up and disengaged down. IMO, A pistol without an external safety is only good for a carry/duty gun in a proper holster. Outside of a holster it either needs to be on target or unloaded... I wont use it as a nightstand gun. Not mandatory but I also really like a grip safety because I like the idea that if the pistol is dropped it wont discharge if something snags inside the trigger guard.44 AMP said:
having the option to, or not to use it....44 AMP said:
is any pistol less safe when carried in a proper holster with the external safety off?
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Watched a guy with a new 1911 fumble the safety on the draw. He's an experienced shooter but new to that gun. He will quickly learn it.
Wonder about the novice in a SD situation who bought one because one shot will turn you inside out, etc.
Wonder about the novice in a SD situation who bought one because one shot will turn you inside out, etc.
I did the same thing by trying to be a snickerpuss and shoot a stage with someone's Hi Power. I'd been shooting SSR, so my body was expecting a double-action trigger pull. The brain didn't catch up, and I yanked a single-action trigger that was locked by the safety.
Had that been a confrontation? Remember me as I lived, full of caffeine and freaking out the squares!
Manual safety dongles have different missions on different guns. On a single-action automatic or a bolt gun in the field, they're an obvious necessity. On a DA pistol, I don't see the point, other than perhaps liability avoidance when the gun is deployed by someone with minimal institutional training.
When it comes to pistols, Condition 3 seems to be the norm among every foreign agency I've seen. I've always been of the impression that the safety is there as a sort of "pause" button should the course of fire be interrupted, not as a safeguard against an ND while carrying.
I started with Browning High Powers long ago in the Army. Since coming to the states and buying my own HP's and 1911's I've made a conscious decision to continue ONLY with single action and frame mounted safety that swipes down for off.
Everything I have has the same manual of arms - helps not to end up fumbling somewhere.
Everything I have has the same manual of arms - helps not to end up fumbling somewhere.
It can be that a person would build for himself something that may not suit the public.
This man has a nice 30-06 custom Mauser with no safety.Gasp!!Horrors!!
I'm happy to hunt/shoot with him,anytime.
He always hunts chamber empty.When he is ready to shoot,he chambers.After he shoots,the chamber is empty.
It works for him.
He is a lefty.Never was a bolt guy.Carried old long guns with hammers.A loaded chamber with hammer on half cock is a darn poor safety.
His solution was an empty chamber,he stayed with it.
This man has a nice 30-06 custom Mauser with no safety.Gasp!!Horrors!!
I'm happy to hunt/shoot with him,anytime.
He always hunts chamber empty.When he is ready to shoot,he chambers.After he shoots,the chamber is empty.
It works for him.
He is a lefty.Never was a bolt guy.Carried old long guns with hammers.A loaded chamber with hammer on half cock is a darn poor safety.
His solution was an empty chamber,he stayed with it.
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I am of the opinion that so many agencies, depts. and militaries requiring a chamber empty carry (condition 3) is all about safety.
Just not the personal safety of the fellow carrying the pistol. The safety of the group (the organization) and the public at large. Particularly in militaries.
Large numbers of mostly young men, mostly undertrained about handguns, accidents are likely, and if you actually allow them to carry with a loaded chamber, they are certain to happen, at an unacceptably high rate.
its what I think of as an "institutional" decision, one that decides what is best for the group, not the individual. Experts will be safe, but the group consists of every level from expert down to long thumbed ape, and even apes with attitudes...
SO, empty chambers for everyone! Its better for all, really...
Which is why I feel the argument "the military does it this way..." falls flat when used for the personal SD carry situation. Got no problem with folks who choose condition 3 for carry, just with the ones who think its the best/only safe way because the military does it that way.
I'm fine with hunting with an empty chamber, outside of the situations where the sound of chambering a round will spook the game or in a dangerous game situation.
Also fine with the guy who knows what he's doing not having or not using a mechanical safety. Sadly, lots of people don't fall into that category.
I AM a big proponent of only using the same type of safety on hunting and defense guns. And the closer to identical you can get, the better. doesn't matter so much which kind it is, more important that is where you expect it, and works the way you expect, because when you need to take a shot, and don't have the time to run through that mental checklist, you will do what your instinct (training) tells you to.
And if you are carrying the "wrong" gun that day, it could cost you.
When talking about militiaries and foreign agencies it is important to look at the circumstances of the carry - when we were traveling to and from the range empty chamber (and mag well) was normal. Switch to Move Out the Gate while deployed in Northern Ireland and it was Loaded, Charged and safety on - this was for 'aid to the civil power activities'.
No different to our guys in Iraq and the Stan - on base no round in the chamber, Move out the gate - you bet they are cocked and locked.
Different horses for courses. I'm not aware of any German Police or Border Patrol who carried chamber empty, equally for the French agencies. In the UK (before I left - so quite a while ago) the police (except in NI) who were firearms officers would have the firearm and ammo in locked containers until authorized to carry - but then carry was cocked and locked as appropriate to the firearm.
In Europe from the 60's through the 80's we had significant Terrorist activities through out our nations (IRA, Bader-Minhof, Red Hand, PLO etc etc).
No different to our guys in Iraq and the Stan - on base no round in the chamber, Move out the gate - you bet they are cocked and locked.
Different horses for courses. I'm not aware of any German Police or Border Patrol who carried chamber empty, equally for the French agencies. In the UK (before I left - so quite a while ago) the police (except in NI) who were firearms officers would have the firearm and ammo in locked containers until authorized to carry - but then carry was cocked and locked as appropriate to the firearm.
In Europe from the 60's through the 80's we had significant Terrorist activities through out our nations (IRA, Bader-Minhof, Red Hand, PLO etc etc).
DA only, striker fired, decockers, ....
As noted, the DA only pistols & SIG like decocker type semi-auto pistols started when several LE & border patrol agencies in Western Europe requested a safe, fast sidearm to carry on duty. Terrorists & armed gangs would stage accident scenes or ambush officers on roadways then run up and start shooting.
Pistols like the Walther P88, HK P-7m8, SIG Sauer P226, etc were designed w/o manual safety controls to allow rapid draws but still be safe to carry loaded.
CF
As noted, the DA only pistols & SIG like decocker type semi-auto pistols started when several LE & border patrol agencies in Western Europe requested a safe, fast sidearm to carry on duty. Terrorists & armed gangs would stage accident scenes or ambush officers on roadways then run up and start shooting.
Pistols like the Walther P88, HK P-7m8, SIG Sauer P226, etc were designed w/o manual safety controls to allow rapid draws but still be safe to carry loaded.
CF
That seems...sensible.
Aren't there still large numbers of uniformed officers who have to carry them in what are essentially buckle shut luggage cases on their belts? That would tend to negate the pistol's advantage, to me.
On the other hand, I can see where the slung SMG every other Polizei seemed to carry would go a long way to balancing this out...
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The idea is that having to activate the safety is another drain on your cognitive-motor processes. You might argue that it is so automatic in your that it doesn't use resources and slow you.
However, we know that if you have an automatic response that you worry about, you may decided to do it with cognitive control and that screws you up. It happens when a ball player screws up a free throw or a poll vaulter flops into the bar.
So in an emergency - you might say - I gotta flip that safety. Launcing a cognitively controlled command might clash with an automatic one and thus the interference screws up both.
Like I said - watch folks who are trained - every once in awhile they mess up the safety.
Another risk is that you have an automatic draw, safety off, shoot path.
When you draw and flip the safety - it might be hard to inhibit the trigger pull as you learned the sequence.
In life, you might want to NOT shoot.
Is it easier to draw a Glock type and not shoot? Perhaps as you didn't have to do a positive gun manipulation as with the safety.
However, we know that if you have an automatic response that you worry about, you may decided to do it with cognitive control and that screws you up. It happens when a ball player screws up a free throw or a poll vaulter flops into the bar.
So in an emergency - you might say - I gotta flip that safety. Launcing a cognitively controlled command might clash with an automatic one and thus the interference screws up both.
Like I said - watch folks who are trained - every once in awhile they mess up the safety.
Another risk is that you have an automatic draw, safety off, shoot path.
When you draw and flip the safety - it might be hard to inhibit the trigger pull as you learned the sequence.
In life, you might want to NOT shoot.
Is it easier to draw a Glock type and not shoot? Perhaps as you didn't have to do a positive gun manipulation as with the safety.
Bikes & motor officers too....
Don't forget the conditions many of these west European LE forces were working in.
On bikes or motor units(motorcycles) which may require one-handed pistol use. The cold, snowy climates may cause the need for winter gloves, that makes using safety levers hard. Plus the newer designs had larger magazines(more duty rounds).
Don't forget the conditions many of these west European LE forces were working in.
On bikes or motor units(motorcycles) which may require one-handed pistol use. The cold, snowy climates may cause the need for winter gloves, that makes using safety levers hard. Plus the newer designs had larger magazines(more duty rounds).
Beentown71
New member
Rifle - Safeties are a must. Not holstered, trigger is available for an AD, not acceptable.
Range work - Whatever floats your boat. SA with a safety seem to have the best triggers so those are a great choice. I like shooting them all.
Carry - No safety on my pistols. Just something else for Mr. Murphy to mess with. On occasion I have carried DA/SA pistols that I kept the safety off. I have heard for years many saying "condition 1" firearms require nothing more but extra training to be as efficient. I have seen first hand many of those "well trained " individuals at classes and shoots have issues manipulating the safety just from the stress of "games". YMMV but I'll stick with point and shoot.
Range work - Whatever floats your boat. SA with a safety seem to have the best triggers so those are a great choice. I like shooting them all.
Carry - No safety on my pistols. Just something else for Mr. Murphy to mess with. On occasion I have carried DA/SA pistols that I kept the safety off. I have heard for years many saying "condition 1" firearms require nothing more but extra training to be as efficient. I have seen first hand many of those "well trained " individuals at classes and shoots have issues manipulating the safety just from the stress of "games". YMMV but I'll stick with point and shoot.
It's possible that this thread was started as result of comments made about the new Remington R51 9mm pistol. This is a SAO pistol that utilizes an internal hammer which must be fully cocked over a loaded chamber. The only safety on this gun is a grip safety. Let's take a hypothetical situation whereby this pistol is placed in a holster where the retaining strap is too tight and inadvertently causes the grip safety to be depressed. You therefore have a pistol with a round in the chamber and NO safety. Although some patent drawings show the original .380 Model 51 pistols with no manual safety, it was decided to include one on production pistols.
In a previous thread, I used the example of the original FN/Browning Model 1905 .25 ACP vest pocket auto (almost identical to Colt 1908 .25) which had only a grip safety and no manual thumb safety. It was only in production for a short time, and was quickly superseded by a later model which incorporated not only a manual thumb safety, but a magazine disconnector as well. Whether there were lawsuits involved here, I have no idea, but, apparently, for whatever reason, somebody felt that a gun with but one safety that was easily overcome unconsciously was not a good idea.
In a previous thread, I used the example of the original FN/Browning Model 1905 .25 ACP vest pocket auto (almost identical to Colt 1908 .25) which had only a grip safety and no manual thumb safety. It was only in production for a short time, and was quickly superseded by a later model which incorporated not only a manual thumb safety, but a magazine disconnector as well. Whether there were lawsuits involved here, I have no idea, but, apparently, for whatever reason, somebody felt that a gun with but one safety that was easily overcome unconsciously was not a good idea.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
GEM said:
You bring up an interesting point Glenn. There has been some discussion over the years about training and a "conditioned" response. I've heard it debated almost every way from Sunday, so please forgive my view which may differ.
Having been preached to for years now about the Newhall incident and others where training may have caused an issue (brass in the pocket, etc) I do feel that it is more important that a person train properly with the firearm type they are carrying, AND train for different types of events. I think timed training can cause more problems if its overused, as in, doing only timed qualification type draw/shoot/re-holster type training.
Case in point, years on back locally, there was a deputy working a side job at a restaurant one evening when they had an armed robbery, and the deputy drew, fired, and re-holstered his revolver before realizing the totality of what was happening. Luckily for the deputy, the crooks where spooked enough by the excitement and ran off unharmed before anything else happened. I have heard of a few other similar stories over the years as well.
I've also seen a few people fumble with a thumb safety as well at times on handguns/shotguns/rifles and miss a shot or two. It does go both ways.
For me, I strongly prefer either a manual type, thumb safety, or a long, heavy deliberate trigger pull similar to a revolver if the firearm is a double action or DA/SA. Why? To try to lesson the chance of the instant draw-shoot issue from qualification. Just my opinion. I would prefer to try my best to be deliberate, and take my time to make well placed shots the best I am able to. For this reason I do not see a thumb safety or revolver type double action trigger pull to be a negative. If it was just about speed, I would not be mandated to use a level 3 holster at work either. I was taught how to hunt using the same method of being deliberate and taking my time to make the shot count.
I've spent so much time with the 1911 platform that when I shoot other guns (loaner revolvers at bowling pin matches, for example), when I come up on target, I swipe the nonexistant safety .....
I would not carry anything that worked differently (up for "fire" would be a definite non-starter for me).
I would not carry anything that worked differently (up for "fire" would be a definite non-starter for me).