Thoughts on carbines?

[briandg]

I have owned a rossi 92 forever. I feel that it is just about as good as anything to keep on hand for defense. lots of heavy .357 ammo.

No, it ain't perfect and it's not for everybody and there are hundreds of better ideas, but this is what I have and what I like, so let's focus on an argument that sort of happened a while back.

A friend bought a marlin in 30-30, and loves it, and right up front he said that it was going to be his "combat" rifle, rather than any other.

My only question is:

With a loss of probably six rounds of capacity (and that can really make a difference in some situations,) is a 30-30 a better choice than a .357, or even .44 or .45 levergun?

No, I don't believe that a 30-30 is necessary. any of those big bore or magnum rounds are capable of dropping a human adversary. It's not like a nine, the .357 in rifle fires 158 grain combat bullets at about 2k. There's no question in my mind that the big bores in a rifle are completely capable of a serious, disabling wound.

Since, I believe, a .357 or larger would disable an attacker probably as well as a 30-30 with similar shots, would anyone here choose to have the extra 6 or so rounds, or the extra power of the 30-30?

Myself, I don't think of my rifle is a go to home defense weapon, but I consider it a fine thing to use outside of the home on anything from zombies to killer mastiffs. I used to camp at an old timber stand, and this thing is what I would have kept in the tent, along with my glock.

What to worry about out of doors? hogs, black bear, pot growers, meth cookers, psychotic beaver hunters, whatever.

handgun round or rifle?

 

[turtlehead]

So I have a 94 in 30-30 and an AR in 7.62x39.

Boom. Rack. Boom. Rack. Boom.

Or boomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboomboom.

That said, I'd go with a semi for defense but would always prefer a rifle round.

Edit: Kinda drifted off into the weeds here. My vote is for the rifle round. Very tired tonight.

 

[Mobuck]

I see no problem with using a LA carbine as long as you can do what you need done with 10 rounds or have an opportunity to "top up" on the fly. I'd just prefer to have the capability to keep sending bullets longer, faster, and farther.

 

[Reloadron]

I do not use a rifle for home defense simply because for my given situation and my home I see no need for a rifle or high round count. I am comfortable with a little 1911 and eight rounds of .45 ACP beside my bed.

This subject seems to come along quite frequently and here is an old thread on the subject of # Of Rounds Fired In Self-Defense? While any case or incident can be an exception to the rule, here are some older data and tables based on the NRA Armed Citizen column. Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters (With Data Tables). For the most part there are really not that many rounds fired in armed encounters, the number in most cases is rather small.

In the end I see it as to each their own just make your decision based on your personal needs and what works well for any individual. I have several carbines but do not consider them for my home defense needs, again simply because I have better choices available to me.

Ron

 

[g.willikers]

For defensive use, my vote would be for the pistol calibers and increased capacity.
The longer range of the 30-30 probably would never be needed for that.
The higher capacity and faster recovery time between shots could make more difference.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

With a loss of probably six rounds of capacity (and that can really make a difference in some situations,) is a 30-30 a better choice than a .357, or even .44 or .45 levergun?

Yes.

Since, I believe, a .357 or larger would disable an attacker probably as well as a 30-30 with similar shots, would anyone here choose to have the extra 6 or so rounds, or the extra power of the 30-30?

extra power of the 30-30 because of today's personal wearable armor that's available one way or another.

 

[jackstrawIII]

I'd choose the 357/44/45 personally. I agree with the OP that most threats at close range will be equally damaged by the "big bore" mag round as compared to a rifle round at the kinds of distances we're talking about.

Obviously the 30-30 is a better long distance option, but for self-defense we're not talking about long distances.... so I'd take the capacity increase and quickness of follow up shots vs a moderate power increase.

I also agree with the OP that there are hundreds of choices (AR, AK, shotgun, etc) that will work for self-defense. But if we're straight up comparing a lever action 357 vs 30-30 (which I think is what the OP intended), I choose the 357.

 

[briandg]

Mcgee, a .357 in a twenty inch barrel has almost twice the velocity of a nine mm and a heavier bullet. The .357 in 158 will blow through level II armor and kill the man wearing it . Level 2 is rated to about 1300 and a rifle .357 is about 2000. The big bores would almost certainly be able to do it too. You don't need a rifle round.

 

[SIGSHR]

In too many SD scenarios, it's always "Lone Defender vs. Horde (Say 5 or more) drug crazed zombies. And we're too hung up on the "zapped by lightning (or a phaser) idea of stopping power.
A 9MM out of a longer barrel ? Who will stand in front of one ? One of my combos is my Marlin 9MM Camp Carbine and S&W M659. Same magazines.
Smooth up the action, especially the loading gate. Easy top off on the fly while keeping the sights on target-and maintaining good cover and concealment.

 

[shafter]

With a loss of probably six rounds of capacity (and that can really make a difference in some situations,) is a 30-30 a better choice than a .357, or even .44 or .45 levergun?

Either will definitely do the job, but I would take the pistol caliber levergun in either of the above calibers. More capacity, a little more compact than the Marlin 30-30, and adequate power. The 30-30 will probably reach out further but how far will you be shooting?

Those Rossi leverguns are very underrated for self defense purposes. Just make sure yours is reliable.

 

[Model12Win]

I would MUCH rather have a .30-30 round in a lever gun, even if it was only 6 shots. If you can't solve it with six, you better learn how to shoot because you'll probably be dead before you can solve it with more.

Better range with less drop over a .357 magnum, and yes, it's quite a bit more power. The damage that those soft tip .30-30s can do is impressive to say the least.

While a .357 lever gun isn't bad out to 75-100 yards, the .30-30 will keep there heads down well past 200. The larger .30-30 shells are also much easier to manipulate for fast reloads in the field.

Save the .357s for a handgun and use a REAL rifle cartridge: .30-30.

 

[Targa]

30-30 because no lever action collection is complete without one. For everything else, yes, I will take the pistol caliber chambering.

 

[SHR970]

No, I don't believe that a 30-30 is necessary. any of those big bore or magnum rounds are capable of dropping a human adversary. It's not like a nine, the .357 in rifle fires 158 grain combat bullets at about 2k.

Since, I believe, a .357 or larger would disable an attacker probably as well as a 30-30 with similar shots, would anyone here choose to have the extra 6 or so rounds, or the extra power of the 30-30?

What to worry about out of doors? hogs, black bear, pot growers, meth cookers, psychotic beaver hunters, whatever.

Edited for brevity to the germain points.

Since you cited 357 158 gr. Try 1700-1800 fps....not 2k. Not only do my manuals say so, so does years of data out of my Marlin. Further.. combat aka Hollow Point ammo tends to over expand at those velocities. Will that matter with a meth head.. probably not

BUT

Try them with a black bear or good sized pig. All those extra shots won't matter if that animal gets P.O.ed and comes for you. You won't get them off. I've seen a 325 lb. blackie that got two in the lungs with a 30-30 and that animal dropped less than 10 feet from the guy who shot him. It started out at about 60 yards....first shot was clean broad side. Second was 1/8 and charging. If that was a 357 he would be hamburger. For a few moments I thought I was going to have to take a risky shot to stop mauling.

For Outdoor I've got to STOP it Now!!!!! 30-30 beats a 357 ANY DAY.

Now if you have to deal with a zombie hoard.....take the 357. But even a hoard of tweakers will head for the hills when the lead starts flying.

 

[briandg]

I didn't say that the 158 ran 2000, I was at that time referring to the 125, that does run about 2000, and has plenty of power to break through level two armor.

I saw a grizzly bear that was killed with a park ranger with a .357 handgun. t was in yellowstone, it charged the ranger, he shot. Probably used 158 lswc.

I admit readily that the 30-30 is stronger. That doesn't mean that the .357 is weak. Since my rifle sits in a closet, it's only purpose is to maybe be used against people, I use 125 grain soft points that would hold together well enough to function. in human or other small targets.

i'm probably never going to shoot a black bear, but there is a remote chance of hog or dog, so given the choice I picked a pistol round for several reasons.

 

[Targa]

If you like pistol cartridges in a lever action and you want it to "do it all" so to speak. Pickup a .44mag, great for the range, not as nice as a .357 but still very good and it will hold its own very well against the 30-30 for charging bears, putting meat on the table, taking out those dreaded zombies/meth heads, etc..etc..

 

[briandg]

Big bore would have been an optimal compromise.

 

[SaxonPig]

Depends on what you might need to shoot. I would agree with the comment about pistol calibers being good for anti personnel use. Actual hunting of larger animals then I want a true rifle caliber.

I have a Winchester Trapper 94 in 44 Magnum that I would not hesitate to use for defensive purposes. Would be OK on smaller "big game" as well at shorter ranges. A 30-30 would be better for hunting.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar.

 

[SHR970]

I didn't say that the 158 ran 2000

You need to reread your initial post. You clearly stated it ran about 2k. And even with your amended 125 gr. statement, my Overexpansion statement not only becomes MORE true but even with soft points it is very true.

Your O.P. wasn't held to just two legged game with vests. And quite frankly your supposition of only level 2 is weak. 2A or 3A even w/o a trauma plate changes the game considerably. Let alone a pig or a bear...referenced in your O.P.

You asked, I replied... and my reply is based on personal experience.

 

[raimius]

Looking at wikipedia numbers, the 30-30 should have about 2kJ of muzzle energy. The .357 is getting around 1kJ. (Now, I didn't run the numbers, and I don't know the barrel length assumed...)

So, I'd say it's probably a draw. The .357 has capacity, and is one of the more effective pistol cartridges for stopping attackers. The 30-03 will definitely have more punch per shot though.

 

[Risasi]

Even though the 30-30 is more powerful I also have chosen a Rossi M92 in .357, to complement my revolvers and I didn't want to reload yet another cartridge.
Even though I still have an AR or two around, honestly the Rossi gets shot more. I'm suffering from AR fatigue or something, plus it's not as fun to carry around. Maybe I'm just getting old and don't want to carry around 20 lbs of gun, gear and loaded mags...since you already have the Rossi stop sweating the small stuff and just shoot it. Play to it's advantages.

You've got a 5lb, low recoil carbine which can be topped off on the fly, and is very capable of taking whitetail size game at 75 yards, maybe a little farther, maybe a little larger game. If you're not hunting it can reach much farther than that, depending upon skill.
Since you specifically mentioned defensive use; Focus on enhancing your skills, and maybe improving your ability for precision hits at speed (target practice and equipment improvements like a red dot or better iron sights), practicing tactical reload (shoot two, load two), get your complementary gear in order (how will you carry extra ammo?).

Here is a good write up of the limits of the cartridge compared to the 30-30: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/chris-dumm/lever-action-ballistics-30-30-vs-357-magnum/

I have a load using Hornady XTP's that launch around 1000-1100fps from my revolvers and around 1400fps from the rifle (which is the top end of the expansion range on that bullet design). They don't break my ear drums and recoil is light so it allows for fast and accurate follow up shots. Heap big medicine in a small pill. For woods in cougar and black bear areas I have Keith bullets. Hard cast with a big flat meplat goes deep and leaves a larger than bullet diameter hole.

P.S. Though I've never done it, some claim they can get > 2000fps with the 158 grain, TTAG article linked above:

Hornady makes a .357 Magnum 140-grain Leverevolution that claims to get 1850 fps and 1064 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. Buffalo Bore also claims that their “Heavy” .357 Magnum hard cast 158-grain loads will produce 2153 fps and 1626 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. This would place it in the middle of the pack for .30-30 ballistics, at least within 100 yards, at a cost about equal to premium .30-30 ammo.

Since it's Buffalo Bore I believe it. That fellow doesn't lie about his bullets and gives real world velocities from his own personal guns on his website.