bryanj0077
New member
God forbid that you should have to face that situation, but if by your selfless actions you were to save lives including your own, I'd be grateful for you.
Thought About This For Awhile..Your Thoughts?
- Thread starter Single Six
- Start date
Single Six
New member
Tws92EO5: No offense taken, brother. You make a lot of valid points. While I am, as previously stated, leaning towards actually doing this, my decision isn't made yet. It's just something that's been on my mind, and I thought it would make for an interesting discussion here on TFL...and so far, it's done just that. Thanks for posting; Be Safe.
Single Six
New member
Bryanj0077: I hope I never face it either...on-duty, or off!
Thanks.
Thanks.Colonel Custer
New member
Single six just a thought
Are you familiar with the warranty on your vest? In high humidity situations the effect of kevlar material is diminished. In plain talk the more you sweat the less effective the vest will become after time. If you wear your vest outside of duty hours then you will reduce the life expectancy of the vest. Most vests have a life span of 6 years give or take. That is in theory for a 40 hour work week which means 12,480 hours of protection. Lets assume you choose to wear the vest 3 hours extra a week = 156 hour a year, one month less of protection for every year you do this. I am hopefully correct in thinking your department has sprung for the model with the tactical plates which are of some use against high power rifles (in my neck of the woods there are as many deer rifles as pistols.) Now if you have a personal bought vest then by all means do as you wish, if your department bought your vest then don't you owe it to your family to ensure your vest keeps you coming home at the end of every shift? Sorry for rambling on but department issu should be for department use, buy your own and wear it on your own time. This way you will get the most out of any vest you wear. Thank you for being a member of the thin blue line.
Are you familiar with the warranty on your vest? In high humidity situations the effect of kevlar material is diminished. In plain talk the more you sweat the less effective the vest will become after time. If you wear your vest outside of duty hours then you will reduce the life expectancy of the vest. Most vests have a life span of 6 years give or take. That is in theory for a 40 hour work week which means 12,480 hours of protection. Lets assume you choose to wear the vest 3 hours extra a week = 156 hour a year, one month less of protection for every year you do this. I am hopefully correct in thinking your department has sprung for the model with the tactical plates which are of some use against high power rifles (in my neck of the woods there are as many deer rifles as pistols.) Now if you have a personal bought vest then by all means do as you wish, if your department bought your vest then don't you owe it to your family to ensure your vest keeps you coming home at the end of every shift? Sorry for rambling on but department issu should be for department use, buy your own and wear it on your own time. This way you will get the most out of any vest you wear. Thank you for being a member of the thin blue line.
Churchmouse: I would add that the legally armed citizen is the LEO's friend. Any honest policeman will admit that we can't be everywhere at once, and most of the time, until we get to the scene of whatever emergency you might have, you're on your own...but, there have also been cases of armed citizens saving LE lives! We're on the same team, friend. By the way, your thanks are never necessary, but are always very much appreciated.
It is REALLY nice to hear that! I conceal carry pretty much everywhere that allows it, and I often feel like if I were ever pulled over or something and had to inform the officer of my gun, that they wouldn't be too pleased about it. Thank you for your service sir!
It is REALLY nice to hear that! I conceal carry pretty much everywhere that allows it, and I often feel like if I were ever pulled over or something and had to inform the officer of my gun, that they wouldn't be too pleased about it. Thank you for your service sir!
Single Six,
My opinion is to do what you feel is necessary. If I saw an off duty officer wearing a vest, I would not think they were paranoid. I am glad to hear you feel that law abiding citizens with firearms are friends of LE. It is good to hear that you carry while off duty. Some agencies have policies that do not authorize their officers to carry off duty - especially if they will be outside of their jurisdiction at any point.
I am not sure if this is still the case, but stab resistant vests use to be a hot item in the UK. Parents would buy them for their kids, as street gangs and school gands in the UK are a big problem in some areas. Since LE is usually unarmed in the UK, they do little to nothing with these vicious gangs who armed themselves with knives and/or firearms. So much for the safety of an unarmed society.
My opinion is to do what you feel is necessary. If I saw an off duty officer wearing a vest, I would not think they were paranoid. I am glad to hear you feel that law abiding citizens with firearms are friends of LE. It is good to hear that you carry while off duty. Some agencies have policies that do not authorize their officers to carry off duty - especially if they will be outside of their jurisdiction at any point.
I am not sure if this is still the case, but stab resistant vests use to be a hot item in the UK. Parents would buy them for their kids, as street gangs and school gands in the UK are a big problem in some areas. Since LE is usually unarmed in the UK, they do little to nothing with these vicious gangs who armed themselves with knives and/or firearms. So much for the safety of an unarmed society.
message sending....
Hm...you feel you need a vest in an area that you are going to take your kids...Im assuming they do not have vests...I'm not sure that is the message to send to them, either to make them feel secure, or as to why you dont give THEM vests.....shootings are not the norm as bad as they are...a deep breath,and situational awareness and ability to respond may be a lot healthier for the kids in the long run...
Hm...you feel you need a vest in an area that you are going to take your kids...Im assuming they do not have vests...I'm not sure that is the message to send to them, either to make them feel secure, or as to why you dont give THEM vests.....shootings are not the norm as bad as they are...a deep breath,and situational awareness and ability to respond may be a lot healthier for the kids in the long run...
[QUOTE Hm...you feel you need a vest in an area that you are going to take your kids...Im assuming they do not have vests...I'm not sure that is the message to send to them, either to make them feel secure, or as to why you dont give THEM vests.....shootings are not the norm as bad as they are...a deep breath,and situational awareness and ability to respond may be a lot healthier for the kids in the long run... [/QUOTE]
This line of reasoning is flawed almost beyond description. It looks like some sort of 1/2 baked attempt at liberal politically correct discussion.
Does that mean you shouldn't drive your children anywhere, . . . you didn't provide them with cars, licenses, insurance, and plates?
Does that mean you shouldn't buy a house, . . . you didn't provide fully separate and equal residences for each child?
No, . . . the proper line of reasoning is that as the father and presumed head of household, provider, and the one making the long term decisions for the family, . . . he is the one most likely to be involved in a situation requiring a vest, . . . is the one most likely to be harmed by not having a vest, . . . and will be the one (if lost) that does the most damage to the family unit.
Wear the thing if you feel like it, . . . as I posted previously, . . . there most certainly would be times I would wear one if I could find the $$$ to afford a really good one.
May God bless,
Dwight
This line of reasoning is flawed almost beyond description. It looks like some sort of 1/2 baked attempt at liberal politically correct discussion.
Does that mean you shouldn't drive your children anywhere, . . . you didn't provide them with cars, licenses, insurance, and plates?
Does that mean you shouldn't buy a house, . . . you didn't provide fully separate and equal residences for each child?
No, . . . the proper line of reasoning is that as the father and presumed head of household, provider, and the one making the long term decisions for the family, . . . he is the one most likely to be involved in a situation requiring a vest, . . . is the one most likely to be harmed by not having a vest, . . . and will be the one (if lost) that does the most damage to the family unit.
Wear the thing if you feel like it, . . . as I posted previously, . . . there most certainly would be times I would wear one if I could find the $$$ to afford a really good one.
May God bless,
Dwight
Wise choice, I even wear mine time to time when I go to "big" events with 100's of people standing around me. No telling what nut is out there and is going to do.
I wear mine 95% of the time I go to the gun range also. I feel its important to wear it while shooting like glasses/ear plugs. I heard it helps in car crashes also? saw it on Seconed chance's website or somewhere like that.
I wear mine 95% of the time I go to the gun range also. I feel its important to wear it while shooting like glasses/ear plugs. I heard it helps in car crashes also? saw it on Seconed chance's website or somewhere like that.
If it makes you feel better than by all means wear it. YOu never know when you might run into a perp that you arrested or an unstable person that you wrote a ticket to. LEO's not only have to deal with the routine nut cases but also have to be aware of the people you previously arrested having it in for you.
Single Six
New member
Dwight55: Thanks for that.
Flawed Reasoning....
Dwight55..
/quote>This line of reasoning is flawed almost beyond description. It looks like some sort of 1/2 baked attempt at liberal politically correct discussion.
Does that mean you shouldn't drive your children anywhere, . . . you didn't provide them with cars, licenses, insurance, and plates?/quote
I think you missed my point,which was..and this goes to the heart of a lot of the varied responses..is how much caution and protection and fear do we carry in our lives....Obviously it is better to be totally body protected, high calibre armed, backup weapons in place, at all times..but do we do that? An active LEO is obviously at higher risk, but the question still stands..its not "liberal" to consider the level of fear we teach our kids..and THAT is what i was referring to...If he feels better with a vest, then more power to him..is it really liberal to consider how we relate to society? If you feel it is, I'd reconsider....
Dwight55..
/quote>This line of reasoning is flawed almost beyond description. It looks like some sort of 1/2 baked attempt at liberal politically correct discussion.
Does that mean you shouldn't drive your children anywhere, . . . you didn't provide them with cars, licenses, insurance, and plates?/quote
I think you missed my point,which was..and this goes to the heart of a lot of the varied responses..is how much caution and protection and fear do we carry in our lives....Obviously it is better to be totally body protected, high calibre armed, backup weapons in place, at all times..but do we do that? An active LEO is obviously at higher risk, but the question still stands..its not "liberal" to consider the level of fear we teach our kids..and THAT is what i was referring to...If he feels better with a vest, then more power to him..is it really liberal to consider how we relate to society? If you feel it is, I'd reconsider....
jimmythegeek
New member
Risk of violence is lower these days, not higher
I'm about a year into gun ownership and exposure to what a lot of gun owners are thinking. I see a lot of gun owners say things are getting worse, and I have to wonder why people are more afraid than they used to be. Violent crime stats are down around the level of the late 1950s. There's been a steady decline for decades.
I won't argue with any individual's risk assessment: you can mitigate an unlikely threat by carrying, and if the cost is worth it to you, by all means! You absolutely have the right to manage your risks as you see fit. And maybe I'm the nut for figuring a Leave it to Beaver level of crime presents such a low level of risk I'm not doing much to get around it. I know Col. Cooper was concerned enough to start on the problem even before the boom in violent crime started. It's still perfectly rational to say "with crime rates still at or above X/100,000, I'm still going to carry and wear body armor." But it's not rational to say "Crime is going down so therefore I'm going to take additional measures." Of course, if you live in Detroit, it is NOT going down. But just about anywhere else in the country, it is.
If you think things are getting worse, what is it making you think that? Is it that every highly publicized incident ratchets up your risk assessment, and nothing ever lowers it? My take is that on the news, for *ever* it's been, "If it bleeds, it leads" and so we get stories of the Missing Young Attractive (White) Woman from across the country disappearing in another country - on the local news! Day after day, year in, year out. I imagine a serving police officer encounters the worst of what still goes on, and that would certainly affect my thinking.
I really don't intend to be a smart-ass or belittle anyone's approach to the safety of themselves and their families. I hope I made that clear and if I didn't, I apologize. OP asked for thoughts, you got mine, such as they are.
I'm about a year into gun ownership and exposure to what a lot of gun owners are thinking. I see a lot of gun owners say things are getting worse, and I have to wonder why people are more afraid than they used to be. Violent crime stats are down around the level of the late 1950s. There's been a steady decline for decades.
I won't argue with any individual's risk assessment: you can mitigate an unlikely threat by carrying, and if the cost is worth it to you, by all means! You absolutely have the right to manage your risks as you see fit. And maybe I'm the nut for figuring a Leave it to Beaver level of crime presents such a low level of risk I'm not doing much to get around it. I know Col. Cooper was concerned enough to start on the problem even before the boom in violent crime started. It's still perfectly rational to say "with crime rates still at or above X/100,000, I'm still going to carry and wear body armor." But it's not rational to say "Crime is going down so therefore I'm going to take additional measures." Of course, if you live in Detroit, it is NOT going down. But just about anywhere else in the country, it is.
If you think things are getting worse, what is it making you think that? Is it that every highly publicized incident ratchets up your risk assessment, and nothing ever lowers it? My take is that on the news, for *ever* it's been, "If it bleeds, it leads" and so we get stories of the Missing Young Attractive (White) Woman from across the country disappearing in another country - on the local news! Day after day, year in, year out. I imagine a serving police officer encounters the worst of what still goes on, and that would certainly affect my thinking.
I really don't intend to be a smart-ass or belittle anyone's approach to the safety of themselves and their families. I hope I made that clear and if I didn't, I apologize. OP asked for thoughts, you got mine, such as they are.
JimmytheGeek; No offense taken, you ask a good question. Here is my response.
Despite what the "stats" say, those of us in LE are seeing bad things, VERY bad things, 24/7, that don't always make the news. Remember, statistics can be manipulated, and often are, to reflect what those in the Ivory towers want them to state. Those in power, want to remain in power and will seek to justify their mandates and leadership, one way or another.
I only wear my vest while on duty, per Dept. policy, but not off duty. Too hot! A handgun?, always.!
Crack/Meth heads and Bath Salter's are about as close to Zombies as we are ever going to see. This ain't wacky weed they are smoking anymore folks! These are some scary, desperate people, who will DO ANYTHING to get their drug of choice. And once they use, they are often out of their minds and very dangerous. Robbery, Rape, Burglary, Murder... they don't care about anyone else, including family, friends, elderly, etc., no empathy or compassion, only the securing of their next "high".
Their value system is often based upon a sense of entitlement, and may be the product of several generations of the same (the apples don't fall far from the tree), broken, abusive, dysfunctional family units, without positive male role models. Add hardcore drugs to the mix of these pro-criminal thugs with under developed brains, a few stolen weapons, and perhaps a dab of gang culture and you end up with very dangerous people roaming the streets. "Zombies", if you will. And they just keep right on breeding...
We taxpayers either pay for their Treatment in the community, or in institutions. Either way, "Evidence Based Practice & Treatment" is the current National philosophy (or at least the philosophy of the Dept. of Justice), and not primarlily punishment or accountability as it has previously been. And while this philosophy is based on logic & reason and WILL, over time, cut down on recidivism rates at prisons and Jails (which translates to lower taxes), but in the mean time many of those violent offenders who slip through the cracks of our LEGAL system (I didn't say "Justice", did I?), and remain in the community and continue to use or relapse, pose a HUGE threat to public safety. There are no easy answers, and our Society is "at the crossroads", with two distinct groups comprised of those of us who are law abiding, decent people working and paying into the system, and those degenerates who live off the system and have no respect for the law, other people or society as a whole. We work and hope & plan for the future, for our children, for our Nation. "They" live and party in the moment, have no plans or desire to work, and expect, if not demand, our society to care for their basic needs, and then some. Zombies. It is a violent culture we live in and it's not getting any better.
So while we try to remain positive, understand this is why many LEO's, CC permit holders / gun owners and others in our society are afraid, no matter what the "latest stats" say.
Despite what the "stats" say, those of us in LE are seeing bad things, VERY bad things, 24/7, that don't always make the news. Remember, statistics can be manipulated, and often are, to reflect what those in the Ivory towers want them to state. Those in power, want to remain in power and will seek to justify their mandates and leadership, one way or another.
I only wear my vest while on duty, per Dept. policy, but not off duty. Too hot! A handgun?, always.!
Crack/Meth heads and Bath Salter's are about as close to Zombies as we are ever going to see. This ain't wacky weed they are smoking anymore folks! These are some scary, desperate people, who will DO ANYTHING to get their drug of choice. And once they use, they are often out of their minds and very dangerous. Robbery, Rape, Burglary, Murder... they don't care about anyone else, including family, friends, elderly, etc., no empathy or compassion, only the securing of their next "high".
Their value system is often based upon a sense of entitlement, and may be the product of several generations of the same (the apples don't fall far from the tree), broken, abusive, dysfunctional family units, without positive male role models. Add hardcore drugs to the mix of these pro-criminal thugs with under developed brains, a few stolen weapons, and perhaps a dab of gang culture and you end up with very dangerous people roaming the streets. "Zombies", if you will. And they just keep right on breeding...
We taxpayers either pay for their Treatment in the community, or in institutions. Either way, "Evidence Based Practice & Treatment" is the current National philosophy (or at least the philosophy of the Dept. of Justice), and not primarlily punishment or accountability as it has previously been. And while this philosophy is based on logic & reason and WILL, over time, cut down on recidivism rates at prisons and Jails (which translates to lower taxes), but in the mean time many of those violent offenders who slip through the cracks of our LEGAL system (I didn't say "Justice", did I?
), and remain in the community and continue to use or relapse, pose a HUGE threat to public safety. There are no easy answers, and our Society is "at the crossroads", with two distinct groups comprised of those of us who are law abiding, decent people working and paying into the system, and those degenerates who live off the system and have no respect for the law, other people or society as a whole. We work and hope & plan for the future, for our children, for our Nation. "They" live and party in the moment, have no plans or desire to work, and expect, if not demand, our society to care for their basic needs, and then some. Zombies. It is a violent culture we live in and it's not getting any better.So while we try to remain positive, understand this is why many LEO's, CC permit holders / gun owners and others in our society are afraid, no matter what the "latest stats" say.
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Tactical Jackalope
New member
hey, I love my tattoos ok? all of them..
I don't know about the whole vest thing...
Dragline45
New member
Whats more important to you, personal comfort day in day out, or personal protection? I like to draw the line somewhere in between. I value my comfort day in day out, so I carry a compact 9mm or a snub revolver vs a full size. Sure I value my life which is why I carry daily, but what's the point without quality of life.
I say ditch the vest while off-duty, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
I say ditch the vest while off-duty, sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
I don't understand
I think most people here are "into guns" because they feel they have a better chance to defend themselves with them then without. I can't see telling someone not to do something that can keep them in the fight. I say if you feel you can then do it.
PS. I joined the forum because Icouldn't believe you were being told not to do something you felt you should do to better defend yourself
I think most people here are "into guns" because they feel they have a better chance to defend themselves with them then without. I can't see telling someone not to do something that can keep them in the fight. I say if you feel you can then do it.
PS. I joined the forum because Icouldn't believe you were being told not to do something you felt you should do to better defend yourself
theinvisibleheart
New member
you need to take probability of risk into account.
Most police officers end up their whole career w/o one single shot being fired in course of duty.
Most CHL holders do not have to use their weapon.
For most folks, odds of automobile accident loom higher than the odds of having to use their firearm.
Risks more likely to happen is back pain/back injury due to duty belt and getting in and out of vehicle often, as well as obesity/being overweight, and obesity/heart problem due to stress.
Most police officers end up their whole career w/o one single shot being fired in course of duty.
Most CHL holders do not have to use their weapon.
For most folks, odds of automobile accident loom higher than the odds of having to use their firearm.
Risks more likely to happen is back pain/back injury due to duty belt and getting in and out of vehicle often, as well as obesity/being overweight, and obesity/heart problem due to stress.