Those Air Marshalls are keeping you safe?

[KP95DAO]

This is a CNN story:

Travelers: Air marshal aimed gun in Delta cabin
September 1, 2002 Posted: 7:24 AM EDT (1124 GMT)

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (AP) -- A federal air marshal pointed a gun towards passengers on a flight from Atlanta to Philadelphia for about 30 minutes Saturday while detaining an unruly passenger, travelers said.

Passengers on Delta Flight 442 said that one marshal kept his weapon pointed at the coach cabin while the other huddled over the detainee, who was released after the plane landed.

"He had the cockpit door to his back, and he is pointing his weapon toward the tail" said Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge James A. Lineberger. The marshal "had the cabin folks under siege," he said.

"If he would have accidentally fired, he would have killed somebody or hurt somebody," said passenger David Johnson, 51.

Federal prosecutors declined to charge the detainee after discussing the incident with the marshals, FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williams said Saturday. She wouldn't release his name or elaborate on the incident.

Transportation Security Administration spokesman David Steigman said air marshals "dealt with a passenger who was acting in an odd and obstreperous manner." He refused to say whether the marshal pointed a gun.

A Delta spokeswoman declined comment on the incident.

Johnson and his wife, Susan, of Mobile, Alabama, said they noticed a man talking to a female passenger sitting in the row behind him about an hour after the flight began.

Shortly after noon, they said, marshals took the man into custody in the first-class section of the plane, which had 183 passengers aboard.

The government has had federal air marshals patrolling planes since the 1980s, but put hundreds more in the air after the September 11 hijackings of four jetliners that crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a western Pennsylvania field

 

[Blackhawk]

"If he would have accidentally fired, he would have killed somebody or hurt somebody," said passenger David Johnson, 51.

Well, at least he didn't say "If the gun had gone off..." as though it were an animate object.

No problem, and I'm sure the passengers had a change of underwear along....

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

I think he did alright...

The second guy probably had his Sig pointed back toward the tail end of the craft, right down between a row of seats. And if a bad guy had stood up with a box cutter or anything else that looked like a weapon, his ass would have been under the grass.
Yes sir, the Sky Marshals did good. IMO. I would have felt MUCH better. I'm serious about this one.

Kentucky Rifle

 

[KSFreeman]

Hmmm, hard to tell as usual. So, the sheople see a pistol and they think it was pointed at them? The real world is not a firing line at some public range.

The back-up did his job as wolves travel in packs and he was watching 6. Maybe should have used Sul instead???

As long as this is worked into the training program, no worries.

 

[Jesse H]

Shortly after noon, they said, marshals took the man into custody in the first-class section of the plane, which had 183 passengers aboard.

And all this time I've been paying a premium for first class

 

[SamH]

The marshals seem to have done well.

The marshal "had the cabin folks under siege," he said.

LOL. Under siege my ass! He was just ensuring no-one else did anything foolish.

"If he would have accidentally fired, he would have killed somebody or hurt somebody," said passenger David Johnson, 51.

Doubtful. The marshal probably had the gun at low ready, pointing down an aisle, rather than passengers.

At least they were alert.

 

[Erik]

I know several people who might describe any manner of firearms weilding as inhgerently dangerous. As such, I take any and all such claims as made in this article with a healthy grain of salt.

 

[RH]

The sheeple want "security" yet they recoil at the realization that security often comes only under threat of violence to wrongdoers.

Marshalls did their job, did it well.

 

[KP95DAO]

My "problem" with this incident.

"Federal prosecutors declined to charge the detainee after discussing the incident with the marshals, FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williams said Saturday."
The last time I checked, interfering with a flight crew aboard a airliner is a federal offense. That being the case,and the fact that these air marshalls felt it necessary to arrest this person at gun point, why wasn't he charged by the FBI. He wasn't even detained for any length of time.
It would seem that he might have cause for filing a lawsuit for unlawful arrest among other things.
Also, I thought that the air marshalls would only come into play when threat of hijacking or great bodily harm was in evidence. What you have is a few (or better still a bunch) of people running around with little or no training making what appears to be bad decisions.
Me fly? Not on your life.

This is from the Drudge Report:

Authorities defend actions of air marshals who drew guns on plane


By PATRICK WALTERS
The Associated Press
9/1/02 9:45 PM


PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Federal officials defended the response of a federal air marshal who trained his gun on the passenger-filled cabin for 30 minutes after detaining a man on the flight, prompting protests from a judge on board.

Two armed marshals, with guns drawn, detained the man because he was rummaging through other people's luggage. One held his gun on the cabin after some passengers ignored warnings to remain seated with their seat belts on, officials with the Transportation Security Administration said Sunday.

"If people would have stayed in their seats and heeded those warnings, that would not have happened," said TSA spokesman Robert Johnson in Washington. "It's our opinion that it was done by the book."

After one or more passengers continued moving around in the cabin, the air marshals decided they needed to take the next step and focus their weapons on the passengers, something dictated by their training, Johnson said.

While one huddled over the detainee, the other stood by the cockpit door with his gun trained on the cabin, several passengers said.

Johnson said the TSA, which oversees federal air marshals on the nation's airplanes, is still reviewing the response of the marshals on Delta Flight 442, which had 183 people on board and was heading from Atlanta to Philadelphia.

Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge James A. Lineberger, who was sitting diagonally across from the detained man, said he thought the marshals overreacted by holding their semiautomatic weapons on passengers for so long. He said he didn't notice any disturbance before the air marshals suddenly took the man up to first class and restrained him.

Several minutes after the man was detained, Lineberger said, the marshals returned to the main cabin and pulled out their guns.

"I assumed at that moment that there was going to be some sort of gun battle," he said. "I'm looking right down the barrel of the gun as though it was pointed at me."

After the plane landed, police boarded the plane and briefly questioned another man sitting behind Lineberger, but did not detain him, Lineberger said. Lineberger, an Army veteran who had been visiting his son in Savannah, Ga., said he plans to file the complaint with the TSA on Tuesday, saying the air marshals overreacted. He said about 30 other passengers also planned to complain.

The man detained by police, who has not been identified, was released and the U.S. Attorney's office decided not to press charges, according to FBI spokeswoman Jerri Williams. She said the FBI has no reason to investigate.

"As far as we're concerned, it's a closed matter," she said.

Delta Airlines spokeswoman Kristi Tucker said the airline would talk with crew members who were on the flight and cooperate with federal authorities, but she declined further comment.

David and Susan Johnson of Mobile, Ala., said they had noticed a man who seemed odd in a seat near them, and saw him talking to a woman behind him. But they also said they weren't aware of any disturbance when the sky marshals took the man first to the back of the plane and then to the first-class section.

"It never made sense," said Susan Johnson, 51, a social worker. "This guy was not any physical threat that we could see. Maybe he said some things to them that made them concerned. He just appeared to us unstable, emotionally."

One passenger, however, said he thought the air marshals handled the situation in a very calm and professional manner.

Robert Venditti-Kramer, 28, said he was on the flight, flying in first-class.

"These guys looked pretty well like they had things under control," he said, adding that the marshals only ever pointed their guns straight down the aisle, not at any passengers. "I think the situation was extremely well-handled."

Despite concerns addressed by the passengers, the TSA official he thought the marshals did what they needed to do to make sure that the plane could land safely. In this case, he said, that involved bringing out their weapons.

"It's a highly charged situation," Robert Johnson said. "It's (about) keeping the plane secure."

 

[Cal4D4]

"One held his gun on the cabin after some passengers ignored warnings to remain seated with their seat belts on"

Depending on exactly how you perceived their actions, is there a chance you would have gotten out of your seat ready to make the final sacrifice? Touchy situation.

 

[SamH]

"This guy was not any physical threat that we could see. Maybe he said some things to them that made them concerned. He just appeared to us unstable, emotionally."

Who knows what the man said. He probably said something which triggered concern among some pax/crew.

People want better security, they should know that tighter security means less slack. If anyone says anything which even slightly indicates evil intentions, expect an ass-hauling.

What you have is a few (or better still a bunch) of people running around with little or no training making what appears to be bad decisions.

Regardless of recent reductions in selection criteria, air marshals will generally have skills above and beyond most gun owners - even avid shooters like those here in TFL. Just because recruitment has been given a little bit of slack doesn't mean air marshals are useless. They've been adequately trained for the job.

He said he didn't notice any disturbance before the air marshals suddenly took the man up to first class and restrained him.

Just because this fellow is a judge, doesn't make him qualified to critique the actions of the marshals. He should stick to his own field of expertise.

adding that the marshals only ever pointed their guns straight down the aisle, not at any passengers.

Now here's an observant individual.


Cal4D4:

Depending on exactly how you perceived their actions, is there a chance you would have gotten out of your seat ready to make the final sacrifice? Touchy situation.

Yeah, it is a touchy situation. But the passengers should have sat down as soon as they were told to. It appears that some passengers just kept wandering about, and the marshal decided a more noticeable form of instruction was necessary.


The core issue is, none of us know enough of what happened to make critical comments about the actions of the marshals. Here we've got obviously biased reporting (notice the over-representation of negative comments by passengers), doubled up by a mob of passengers who have no idea about fickleness of counter-terrorism and security, and probably no idea about guns.

IMHO, the marshals deserve a break until the investigation concludes they've done something wrong.

 

[adk]

In some circles it's considered enlightened to be a sissy crybaby. Watch on CNN how EAGER the TV men are to express fear. They love to say it's Chilling or Terrifying or Scary, or other fearful words. Even big ol' Lester Holt on NBC. Always worried and afraid.

This country has lost its way. But the women will start getting nervous to see the men acting like this and will eventually put them on the right track.

 

[Vin]

You are screwed if you do and screwed if you don't, we were not there. The same people who are complaining about the Air Marshalls drawing their weapons would probably be the same people who would make an issue if something happened and they did nothing about it. How quick everyone seems to forget Sept 11th yet it is only eight days away.

 

[rennaissancemann]

Where's the issue here...

Based on available reporting,

Two Sky Marshals put one guy down for due cause. Not knowing if this fellow acting solo or part of a team, they take steps to control the situation by directing the passengers remain seated with their seatbelts on. When some of the passengers ignore the instructions, one Marshall secures the prisoner and the other protects the flight deck. Sounds like SOP to me.

Nobody gets hurt, and the flight lands safely. Sounds like a success story to me.


Regards

 

[pdmoderator]

Fingers inside or outside trigger guards?

- pdmoderator

 

[KP95DAO]

Allright; perhaps my judgement on this issue is colored by the fact that I personally know a handful of these new marshalls.


They, to a man, applied for the job for primarily these three reasons in this order: They were unhappy with their Federal job (read that they weren't getting promoted), they were attracted by the 25% increase in pay which was dangled in front of them, and they liked the idea of being able to carry a gun on the job.

Nothing in there about keeping America safe from terrorism. And then there are the 20 some from a sister institution which was staffed by even lesser individuals. So, I don't know, maybe it's just me.

 

[El Rojo]

"This guy was not any physical threat that we could see. Maybe he said some things to them that made them concerned. He just appeared to us unstable, emotionally."

Sorry, but some emotionally unstable guy going through luggage on a plane sounds like a situation to me. So what, the marshals pointed their guns at you. You are still alive right? Deal with it. That is the cost of flying now adays. I am not concerned about it.

 

[Erik]

"Sorry, but some emotionally unstable guy going through luggage on a plane sounds like a situation to me."

Damn straight it does. Who's to say at the time that he was not rummaging through luggage looking for the gun which was supposed to be stashed there? Nobody, hence, you take him down.

 

[Fred S]

I bet they are trained to pull weapons out if people don't obey their orders to stay seated. The first guy, who rummaged the luggage, could be just a diversion. The marshals probably did right.

 

[dinosaur]

Same garbage heard on the street. "Why didn`t they shoot to wound?" "Why did he have his gun out?" "Why did he point his gun at the murderer, rapist, burgler etc. when he`s really a good boy." :barf: Idiots get the protection they deserve. How come the reporter didn`t ask, or did he, whether pilots should be armed?

How many here get the screech ninnies working overtime when they`re in your company and find out you`re a dreaded gun nut?

BTW, as I understand it, FAM`s can`t carry off duty. Some Feds including Customs will usually carry on a local permit since the service considers them "civilians" off duty. Depends on the dep`t and the state they live in. Big difference being indemnified by the job or not.