This is Not a Second Amendment Issue...

MTT TL

New member
Seems to be a renewed call for a ban on body armor.

Honda’s “Responsible Body Armor Possession Act,” introduced July 31, would prohibit civilians from buying or owning armor – including vests, shields, helmets and other items – rated Type III or higher on the National Institute of Justice’s penetration resistance scale.

Wants ban of level III and higher, turn in of items on hand. The goal is to make it easier for the police to shoot "trigger happy gunmen". Says it "is not a 2A issue".

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/08/congressman-guns-for-high-performance-body-armor-ban

Bill is at link as well as the usual crazy talk drivel.

I would say that this is about as second amendment as they come.
 

Technosavant

New member
I don't know if it's a 2A issue (since body armor isn't a firearm), but I would consider it falling under one's basic right to life. It's a defensive item. You can't harm someone with body armor (well, the soft stuff anyway... but even with a ceramic trauma plate I don't know that you can get that great a swing with it). It's only an issue if someone is wearing it in commission of a crime that involves the use of deadly force by the police.

If the people should remain vulnerable in case the police feel the need to shoot them, should we not also prohibit anything else that might cause the police inconvenience should they wish to take us into custody? Where do we draw the line?
 

MTT TL

New member
Probably not the number of times but rather the portrayal of body armor turning people in to unstoppable killing machines during the few times it has been used.
 

44 AMP

Staff
..the portrayal of body armor turning people in to unstoppable killing machines..

Where's the bill to prohibit this "portrayal" in our popular entertainment medias? What? its a civil rights issue? Really?????

Here's the mindset, rather then adding to the penalty for committing a crime with one (as if that would actually do some good), lets just make it a crime to have the darn things at all......

Are we going to need to get permits for a decorator suit of armor next?
 

Spooler41

New member
Body Armor

There already laws on the books , that out law body armor during the
commission of a crime. If you play,you pay. leave the law abiding alone..


...................Jack
 

Jo6pak

New member
The question from the ANTIs is always "Why would you need that."

In a free society the correct question is, "Why should I be prevented from owning it."

That is something that has gotten reversed and needs to be corrected. SOON!!
 

barnbwt

New member
Not that this is intentional or is even a realistically achievable goal, but limiting body armor is actually a better way of limiting the potential destruction posed by shooters than going after their guns.

Think about it; in a properly armed society, or even an unarmed society with official armed responders, the most likely force brought to bear against an attacker, regardless their weapon, will be pistols, at first. Pistols are what will end a threat in its infancy, before hostages can be taken or barricades made. But pistols are the most ineffective rounds against even simple homemade body armor, as has been seen occasionally but consistently throughout history (the LA bank robbers, and that famous outlaw character with the iron plate-armor who tore around Down Under years ago come to mind).

Anyone with any gun for the most part is capable of ending a threat up to and including a guy with a mobile belt-fed (probably the largest weapon wieldable by a single person) provided their bullets can hit vital targets. Body armor can make that flat out impossible, and it won't matter how many CCW'er or officers are around, the threat will continue while a stronger response is formed. That's why I've always thought body armor poses the greater threat to the public than firearms. If firearms have a civilizing/corrective effect by increasing the consequences for bad actors (the 'equalization' of Sam Colt), then body armor functions to remove or reduce those effects, allowing once more for a monopoly of force by the bad guys.

Now, this is not to say banning the stuff is at all helpful; it isn't, because the only easier to make in your garage than guns is probably plate-armor, and high-tensile fiber fabric is a technology with myriad uses that will permeate everything before long (I'd imagine carbon fiber makes a decent ballistic vest, for example). So, ignoring the whole 'criminals will not obey' refrain, the means to make the things will be available, regardless, so banning them is out of the picture. So what to do about this technological development that threatens to under the new balance of power wrought by civilian firearms? Embrace the arms race, and retire these idiotic, antiquated, and arbitrary rules governing pistol ammunition considered legally 'armor piercing'

Most all rifle rounds will punch through most soft armor, more and more pistol rounds are fast enough to do so, and body armor --for police, Joes, and crooks-- will only become cheaper and more available with time. When officers did not wear body armor, they got by being just as vulnerable as Everyday Joe; it's not like the presence of 'officer-penetrating' ammo sent hordes of criminals after officers' blood (and I think we can all agree that tactics was as much to blame as equipment for officer fatalities in the old days). While I highly doubt the loss of police 'bulletproofness' will lead to substantial increase officer deaths or injury (a significant increase, maybe), the important thing they need to realize is this development is inevitable. Vests will eventually be made obsolete by ballistic developments, at least for a while, so the important thing is to keep up. Part of keeping up with the criminals' capabilities is making sure non-leo citizens are not left behind in the dark ages, so that they can defend themselves as well as assist officers if needed; in such a scheme, there is less need for the officers to put their gear to the test in the first place.

TCB
 

MTT TL

New member
I just keep thinking "dumb and dumber". Without going into the politics of the thing it does appear consistently through the years as though one side of the political spectrum wants to solve all the world's ills by banning offending items all while devolving people of personal responsibility for their actions. The other side seems to mostly want the opposite.
 

Hugh Damright

New member
Webster's handy 1828 dictionary says:

ARMS, n. plu. [L. arma.]

1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body.
 

2ndsojourn

New member
^^^ From the linked article:
"Since 2002, it has been illegal under federal law for convicted felons to possess body armor of any sort. This has been prosecuted in U.S. courts even in states that do not criminalize the possession of body armor."

So....it's already against the law for felons to have it. What will this accomplish?
 

MTT TL

New member
Thanks for that HD. Strange how meaning shift over time. What would have been well understood back then is not remembered today.
 

gyvel

New member
Barnbwt, are you saying that private individuals should not have body armor? I'm having some trouble interpreting your response.:confused:
 

jimbob86

Moderator
So....it's already against the law for felons to have it. What will this accomplish?

Why, it'll make it ..... MOAR Illegaller! That's it! ...... and it that does not stop the problem (and it won't), we'll pile on even more suffixes and say it louder! Making something MOAR Illegaller-est-ness-ment may not do anything either, but it will make it appear like we are doing something, and show you little proles that we REALLY, TRULY, VERY DEEPLY, CARE......... so vote for me b/c I CARE SO DEEPLY FOR YOU, LITTLE PEOPLE .......

Sincerely,

John Q. Politician
 

barnbwt

New member
Gyvel,
My point was that body armor is a bigger force multiplier than "assault weapons" or, especially, armor piercing ammunition. Bullets cannot negate bullets, but armor sure can, allowing a bad guy with a gun or otherwise to continue striking with impunity (see Hollywood). I go on to say, that body armor cannot practically be purged from the populace (or criminals), so a ban is impossible. Therefore, armor piercing ammo should be legalized in order to somewhat negate the disruption to the balance of (firearms) power offered by body armor.

A hi cap mag only matters if the shooter lives long enough to burn through it. In body armor, he stands a greater chance of doing so, for good, or ill.

TCB
 

barnbwt

New member
One more point of interest, in light of the Fergusson riots; what about gas masks?

I saw every single police officer wearing those Halloween masks at certain points during the hostilities (still ongoing, from the sounds of it :(), and not one demonstrator/looter/whathaveyou. Long before unrest rises to the point of shots fired, there will be a lot of tear gas, so from a RKBA balancing-the-state perspective, tear-gas rated masks are probably more important than body armor. You won't wear them daily of course, but the same can be said for all but the lightest armor.

TCB
 
Top