The Ultimate Carry Gun...

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Slightly different opinion, Bill. I have two major carry guns and I try to practice with each and train with each.

One is for the pocket when that it the way to go and the other is for the belt.

I agree with folks yapping about things like an ankle holster. Heard that the other day, that draw would take about a minute and half from that old guy. Yeah, deep backup blah, blah - understand that. But primary. NO.
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
Glenn,
No difference of opinion, I don't think.
I see nothing wrong with carrying a full-size (or compact) gun. I encourage it. What I don't encourage is people telling new carriers that small guns are useless, or worse-dangerous.

If I knew I was going to have to use it, I would want the biggest gun I could get. But- going about my daily business in my nice suburban world, I carry a pocket pistol because it'a always there and it's no trouble to carry.

I have always kept a bigger gun handy in the car (or house.) When I worked nights in the rectum of one of the most violent cities I carried a bigger gun, but I still had the pocket pistol there. I call it my "primary" gun and the bigger gun is a "backup."

My advice is to never look down on the little gun that you can always have with you.
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
Old guys and ankle holsters-

If I bent down to get a gun off my ankle, it's very likely I couldn't straighten back up!
Or, If I was to raise my foot to get to the gun, I'd just fall over!
 

Boncrayon

New member
I carry everywhere but in the shower and sleeping...yet always within reach. Oh, and it's not the firearm as much as the ammo selection!
 

AK103K

New member
Most people don't carry all the time because they listened to some "expert" or "instructor" that told them that only big guns work. They think a .25 or a .32 will just bounce off of someone or "just make them mad."
I see it in this thread, too.
If you really want to carry your full sized .40+ caliber gun, that's fine-but stop spouting that small guns are useless. They are far more useful than the gun left at home.
Small guns arent useless, but there are better choices, and they dont have to be small.

Most small guns really arent a novices gun either, and especially the "little" ones (and even more especially, those of larger calibers), contrary to what you often hear suggested. They normally take more effort to be competent with (ammo is also usually out of proportion price wise, making practice expensive), are often harder to access and deploy, and generally come with dismal sights, and chambered in a caliber that offers less then stellar performance, make your ability to reasonably do something with them, that much harder. Yes, if its all you have, youd be glad you have it, but Id be a lot happier, if I had something more realistic, and thats not really all that much harder to do, and again, contrary to what youre often told, on a daily basis.

Im not against smaller pistols, I carry one daily, but its a back up to my main gun. I simply see these smaller guns as just that, back up, last ditch and/or hand off guns.

Ive carried a number of them too, Baby Browning's, Colt Pockets, Beretta's, and Seecamps, etc., to name a few. The Seecamps being the most recent and last, before I realized I could, and do, do better with a Glock 26 in its place.


I fully understand the "have a gun" thing, but I believe it should it expanded to "have a gun that you shoot well with", and in most circumstances, not just one or two narrow scenarios that you might be running in your head. The real world gun fight youre likely to get, isnt likely going to be like them. Yes, have a gun, and do your due diligence, and learn how to use it. For your sake, and the sake of others. Thats all Im saying. Im not saying you need to be some IPSC, IDPA, SWAT, Seal, god, just reasonably competent and realistic in your skills. Nor am I saying that the state should mandate anything, it should not.

I agree with folks yapping about things like an ankle holster. Heard that the other day, that draw would take about a minute and half from that old guy. Yeah, deep backup blah, blah - understand that. But primary. NO.
As a primary, youre right, they are not the best choice, although they really arent all that bad with a little practice and use. I use one regularly, and they definitely have their uses and pluses.

My other secondary holster, and actually my favorite all around holster, are my Smart Carry's. I used to use one for my Seecamps, but now a 26 rides in its place. 19's, and even 17's (among other things) are doable in them too, and comfortably.

Old guys and ankle holsters-

If I bent down to get a gun off my ankle, it's very likely I couldn't straighten back up!
Or, If I was to raise my foot to get to the gun, I'd just fall over!
Hey, lets be fair here, thats not the holsters issue or fault.

Its also touches on something that is really a major problem these days, old guy or not. Lets face it, the majority of the population these days, is overweight, and out of shape, and many would probably fall over from heart failure, if put under stress. Ive been there, and saw the light. Ive carried and shot pretty much everything, fat and out of shape, and skinny and fit, and its definitely a lot easier, skinny and fit. Ive been injured too, in both, and again, way easier when skinny.

Im officially getting to be an old guy too, just turned 60 this year. I can easily drop to one knee and draw, draw my leg up and stand one legged and draw, and pretty quick too, but I do practice regularly. I also work at staying fit and in decent shape, and that pays benefits well beyond shooting, but really helps with shooting, and maintaining those skills.
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
I'm 60. It's not that I'm in bad shape, but I have a screwed up back.
Re Smartcarry:
I have no desire to have a Glock in my jock! Nor do I need concealment that badly. Perhaps some do.
My point is that MANY people won't carry a gun that is inconvenient. For them, a small gun is better than no gun at all.

Unless it's in your underwear or on your ankle.... ;);););)
 

AK103K

New member
The gun is only as inconvenient as you want to make it. Carrying a full size gun, is really no harder than carrying something like a Seecamp or Baby, which has been my point all along, you just have to want to do it. We appear to be on opposite ends of whos telling who what here, when it comes to what you can have on you. :)

Having a gun I can shoot well with, and will handle things in most situations I might could encounter, makes it a lot more convenient to me. The fact I can easily have "both", at the same time, makes it even more so.

Even if I should choose to only have the 26 along, which happens on occasion, I still get that convenience, as the 26 is more like a "little" full size, than it is a little gun.


As far as where you carry it, you do what works best for you. I feel more self conscious with my Seecamp in my pocket, than I do a 17 IWB in my waistband under a tee shirt, and/or my 26 in "my jock". Its a lot easier/faster to get that 17 into action too. The 26 is quicker too.

Glocks (and/or Smart Carry's) arent near as scary as the internet tells you, and as so many seem to believe. Then again, Ill bet 99% of those who tell you they are, never carried one, especially in ways that seem to scare them the most. Im not a fool, I fully vetted mine, and have done things with them that would give the internet experts coronary's. :) Like anything else, if your reasonable in your gun handling, you wont have any problems.
 

Limnophile

New member
Quote:
It's far better to have a gun, even a less than ideal gun, even with insufficient training, than it is to be highly trained and own an ideal gun that's not with you when you are faced with a scenario requiring a firearm.


Ive never said dont have a gun along. My point is, if youre going to carry one, get a "real" one, and have the skills to use it. If you feel the need to carry one in the first place, why would you do otherwise?

The moral of the story in the OP is that a gun that is handy, which many might regard as substandard, is infinitely better than a gun, which most would consider to be a proven manstopper, that is unavailable. No one is arguing that a quality firearm is not generally better than a cheap one, or that training is not generally better than no training, but a quality firearm that is not readily available is useless, as is the world's best gun training if you don't have a gun.

You dont have to compromise and carry a "little" gun. A full sized gun is easily carried and a much better choice.

Sometimes one does have to carry a little gun. Undercover police officers sometimes must do this. An armed civilian must also do so in some circumstances where deep concealment is a must or preference. And, sometimes it's a legitimate choice of convenience.

For example, I worked in a professional office where carrying even a compact pistol would have been frowned upon if not outrightly barred by management. When a project team is huddled over documents laid out on a conference table, the likelihood of an incidental contact between someone else and a 2-lb tool is so high as to be virtually certain to occur eventually. However, a pocket pistol deeply concealed would never be detected by such contact, as pockets are expected to hold tools of various kinds.

Quote:
Ever hear the saying: “Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal”? It was in reference to a tool, not a skill.


Its a cute saying, and we both know that.

It's a catchy saying that has persisted for a century and a half because it is rooted in truth.

Just having a gun, does not make you an equal, or even a better. Given two people with guns, the one who has no skill or training, is trusting to luck and false confidence.

No one has ever argued that just having a gun makes one better, but I'll credit you with one strawman slain.

Given two people, one with a gun, the gunless one is at the mercy of the armed one. Given two people, both without guns, the frail one is at the mercy of the burly one. The quip about Mr. Colt truthfully reflects the fact that with a gun the weak have a chance.

Quote:
How many gun owners who eschew formal training do you think do not bother to read their gun's instruction manual and go out, load it up, and fire a box or more of ammo in familiarizing themselves with their tool?


Id bet a lot of them. Ill bet a lot of them just load the gun, never shoot it, and just put it away, or in their pocket.

My guess is that power tools are responsible for many more ER visits than are untrained firearms owners.

Quote:
With only the gun training without access to the gun, you may well put yourself and others in great danger if all you can do is stand there with your finger in your armpit.


You keep going to the "gunless" thing here for some reason, when thats not the issue.

Because that is the entire point of the OP. Read it.

The point of training and practice, is to be proficient with your gun. If you choose not to do that, you do so at your own peril (and that of others around you).

Agreed. No one has said otherwise. Another strawman down!

Some of us do see things as a package deal too though. A gun is only one part of it, and its not a magical part, like some want it to be. Then again, this is a gun board, so it carries more weight. If your only skills are gun related, you may want to expand your horizons a little.

No one is arguing that a gun is magic, only that having ready access to one is the most important element if you wish to prevail in a gunfight or successfully repel some other assault. A point of the Colt quip is that not everyone can succeed in the martial arts, but darn near everyone can use a revolver.

Quote:
Of course the subject was gun training, not martial arts training. The quip about Colt making men equal had nothing to do with training and everything to do with Colt's revolving handgun. A firearm in the hands of a petite woman puts her on more equal footing to a hulking male thug. But, if you move the goalposts far enough you can engineer a winning argument.


Youre the one who keeps pointing in that direction "gunless", hence the comment.

Because that was the point of the OP. Read it.

The old lady with a gun, is simply an old lady with a gun, especially if her only skill with it, is having it. She may be in a better place having it, but shes still in a very bad place if shes up against a determined thug.

John Lott has shown that a woman under assault is, on average, better off fighting back. Undoubtedly, a woman with a gun and good training on how to use it is better off than a woman with just a gun and no training, but even the latter woman is better off than an unarmed gal.

Quote:
As to the point made above about the majority of DGUs not involving the gun being fired, while recently reading the LAPD's Use of Force report for 2010 I noted that for every shooting incident there were four incidents where a firearm was drawn and exhibited but not fired.


Thats great and all, but it sounds like your whole theory here, is using the gun as a threat/bluff, with nothing to back it up should the other party not be intimidated by you. Is that right?

Not at all. I was merely backing up the claim that most DGUs do not involve any shots being fired. The sampling survey typically cited to support the claim is one condicted by a pro-gun criminology prof from FL, I believe, and it is criticized because the DGU rate is very low, and sampling surveys can be inaccurate in quantifying extremely rare events. The LAPD data are from a census, so they contain no sampling errors.

...

To look at it in a different perspective, its really no different than the person who takes a generic karate class at a local Dojo, and then thinks they are good to go against a street fighter.

Poor analogy. Martial arts are mostly skill, while shooting arts are tool-centric.
 

godot

New member
The Ultimate Carry Gun

for normal middle class people, carrying out everyday activities IMO is the Kel-Tec P32. It's cheap, isn't fussy about ammo, and is around 8 ounces or so loaded. It can be carried almost anywhere. They had some problems when they first came out, but mine goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
Now if I had a job as an LEO or a drug dealer, I'd want more firepower. If I lived or worked in a high crime area, I'd want more firepower. If I dealt with a lot of cash or jewelery, I'd want more firepower.
Right now, I want to walk about a block and get a hot beef sandwich and my P32 will probably be just fine. :)
 

orionengnr

New member
The gun is only as inconvenient as you want to make it. Carrying a full size gun, is really no harder than carrying something like a Seecamp or Baby,
That is true if you are 25, 35 or maybe 45.

Some of us have a few more miles on the bones. I used to carry a full sized 1911. Now approaching 60 years old, with three spine surgeries behind me...no, that is no longer an option. A lot of things hurt a lot more than they used to, and carrying a 40+ oz gun is very much one of them.

Most people don't carry all the time because they listened to some "expert" or "instructor" that told them that only big guns work.
"Most"? Really? Do you have some evidence to support this theory?

My own theory (which is supported by my conversations with CHL holders who do not carry) is that "most" people with CHLs don't carry because they don't really perceive a threat. But I will readily admit that this is just a theory....
 

coolbreezy

New member
I carry 95% of the time and it's always between a fullsize single stack .45 or my 629 snub. I don't carry them because of the large and "effective" caliber choices, I carry them because I'm very familiar and accurate with them. Every handgun I own besides a pt-22 that was given to me is full sized. I don't carry my 9mm, .40 or .357 mags. It's not that I feel undergunned, it's that I'm better with the previous carry firearms I've already metioned.
 

AK103K

New member
That is true if you are 25, 35 or maybe 45.

Some of us have a few more miles on the bones. I used to carry a full sized 1911. Now approaching 60 years old, with three spine surgeries behind me...no, that is no longer an option. A lot of things hurt a lot more than they used to, and carrying a 40+ oz gun is very much one of them.
I know full well what you mean by a few more miles. :)

Im now approaching 61, and have had my more than my share of undesirable results due to bad luck, bad decisions, and constant wear and tear on my body too. Years of hard physical play and labor, combative/martial arts, a couple of bad parachute landings, climbing miscalculations, car and motorcycle/ATV wrecks, etc, tend to take their toll over time.

Even with the injuries, continuing to stay physically active, and in reasonable shape, makes it a lot easier to go farther into old age with reasonable expectations of being able to keep up a younger lifestyle. Unavoidable, or beyond your control serious problems aside of course.

Even though you dont recover like a 20 year old at 60, if you stay active and in reasonable shape, if you should get hurt, you still tend to not get hurt as bad, and recover quicker, even when older.

Not saying things dont still hurt either though. Pain just tells you youre still alive, and helps you focus. ;) (not saying it still doesnt suck either. Alleve helps a lot, and is a daily staple these days. :D)


I think a lot, if not most of what you see these days though, is a lack of active lifestyles all around, even with (and maybe especially with) many of the younger people, and that just aggravates things even more, as you get older. Like most things, you get out of it, what you put into it.

Shooting wise, like anything else physical, its a lot easier, and youre results are usually better, if youre fit. Carrying a full size handgun, and its accessories, doesnt even get a thought.
 
Ever hear the saying: “Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal”? It was in reference to a tool, not a skill.

Technically, this is ONLY a reference to COLT brand tools and absolutely no other firearms what-so-ever.

It's a catchy saying that has persisted for a century and a half because it is rooted in truth.

No, its really not.

LOL, this was an advertising slogan used by Colt to SELL only COLT brand guns after the civil war. Cute catch phrase, but not created for the purpose of denoting or denouncing the value of skill versus tool. It wasn't even an accurate statement. Colt never made people equal, not even in his own factory. The statement really holds no actual bearing to the tool/skill argument either way since it was a reference made by Colt to a tool they were MARKETING. It isn't as if Colt, at the time, went through and did a valid study of of the skill level of Colt firearms users to determine if it was the Colt brand firearm that mattered more or the skill of using the firearm. Nope, they were just trying to sell COLT firearms, LOL.

This is hardly a justification for any argument other than for one of marketing.
 
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Terminatorret

New member
The "ultimate carry gun" would be 100% reliable, pack an elephant punch, be totally concealable and so comfortable that you forget it's there.
I have to compromise on the elephant part, but my most carried guns (in descending order):
NAA .22 LR mini (any pocket, any time)
S&W Model 36 (Wranglers pocket)
Ruger .357 LCR (Wranglers pocket)
Polish p-64 (ankle holster)
 

KyJim

New member
I have to agree with the thought about the ultimate carry gun. In fact, the principle is my first rule of carry in my sig line.
 
Man this is sooooo true. Most important part is to carry all the time.
Only Two places I dont.

Gov buildings = Dont want to go to jail and loose my rights

Work= I need this job and it is forbidden. But I am in a locked control room with three layers of obstacles before they get to me. But I do bring it up at every employee meeting. We are in fact a target, why should I be disarmed???

Rest of the time: I am packing.

Ether a .380 LCP in the pocket.
A J frame IWB when I have to go against skin.
Or a Compact 9mm IWB when I can have a shirt between it and me.

I will admit its 98% about comfort, Still experimenting.
A XD's 45 is next on the list.

The guns I have for home defense are allot bigger.
 

armedleo

New member
Whatever you carry you should have complete confidence that when you pull the trigger it goes bang. That said, get the best quality gun you can afford - I think you should be prepared to spend between $350 and $600 and no less - and make it a 9mm with quality ammo. Practice with it. Be able to reload with your eyes closed. The next most important thing is be sure to get the right holster.
 
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