The Smallbore Defensive Shotgun

[TheKlawMan]

Not to be rude, but officers utilize a myriad of weapons such as rifles, handguns, shotguns, and tasers. This is a shotgun forum and the thread is about shotguns so try to stick on point.

I will say that the AR-15 is the go to weapon for certain tasks, but for some it is the shotgun. Often an officer with one will work in a team with an officer with the other.

The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.

 

[Pfletch83]

But were we talking about Law Enforcement in the first place?

We were talking about shotguns in the home for self defense use by a non governmental (heavy on the 'Mental' in some cases) employed citizen.


Also with a new upper and magazine an AR-15 can be turned into a shotgun (it is a Modular weapons system after all )

 

[TheKlawMan]

This is going no where and I don't wish to be rude to you. Bye

 

[OkieCruffler]

I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the new idea that the .410 is a great defensive round. No doubt it will work, but so will a pointy stick. The #1 rule of any defensive gun should be "practice". If you can afford to run a couple hundred of those exotic .410 rounds thru your weapon every couple of months then more power to you. And the arguement "a hit with a 22 beats a miss with a .45" is pretty well countered by "a hit with a 45 beats a hit with a .22".

 

[jmortimer]

Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder. It will penetrate 20" of ballistic gelatin which is technically too much gun in a home but the FBI 19" max is close enough. The Brenneke slug will out penetrate a 10mm HP with about 900 ft lbs of energy. When did 000 buckshot or Brenneke slugs become exotic? This is crazy talk. If you watch the video I linked above and you see five Winchester 000 buckshot balls blow right through 12" of ballistic gelatin like it was nothing then and you still think a .410 won't work then you had better contact the FBI and tell them that you are a ballistics savant and they have it all wrong and need you to "learn them" on ballistics.

 

[OkieCruffler]

It has nothing to do with if the .410 can perform or not, it has everything to do with will you (or whoever chooses one) will practice enough with it to hit with those loads. The OP is recomending the .410 to inexperienced shotgunners to me thats a pretty big stretch.
And if anyone is contacting the FBI for being a "Ballistics savant" it should be you so they can start arming their agents with .410's. Don't try to snark the snarker.

 

[jmortimer]

That was funny - I'm designating it for FBI entry duty.

 

[TheKlawMan]

OkieCruffler, I never made it clear, but that is what bothers me about the OP's position on what a great defensive tool the .410 is. I don't want first time shotgunners buying his great defensive tool. Even if one becomes very proficient with the .410, I think a larger gauge is more likely to get the job done.

Per AMMUNITION FOR THE SELF-DEFENSE FIREARM by "Anonymous" published by Chuck Hawks at http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm :

The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs . . . There are some odd buckshot loads for the .410 (with three 000 pellets) and I advise you to ignore them. . . .

 

[jmortimer]

^ Worthless article by "Anonymous" relying on Marshall and Sanow and way short on facts. Far better information is available including objective ballistic testing which I linked.

 

[TheKlawMan]

The introduction of one of the aricles you linked provides that :

One of the smallest shotguns available, the .410 Bore should be considered among the lowest-performing shotguns for hunting and self-defense. . . . using buckshot or a limited-expansion slug the .410 Bore can be relied upon to stop an attacker given greater than ordinarily careful shot placement.[/QUOTE]

So you are recommending the use of one of the lowest-perfoeming shotguns for self-defense?

You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment.

I have some buddies that shoot the .410. One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's. BigJim shoots a .410, when he wants to punish himself, and I don't think of him as a poor shot. Of course it is difficult for a little guy like Jim to handle anything more than a .410.

 

[jmortimer]

^ I thought you checked out on this thread a few posts ago. Between you and Mr. Okie I might have to check out and say Uncle. I'm wrong about 800 to 900 ft lbs of energy and 5 .36 caliber balls that go 20" in ballistic gelatin in one shot. I'm wrong about the Brenneke slug that out penetrates 10mm HPs. I like the balance of low recoil and the terminal ballistics. But I digress, again.

 

[idek]

In this little debate, I feel like I've been in the "I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge" camp.

But trying to be objective about it, I toyed around with some of the numbers. The purpose isn't necessarily to compare it directly to a 12 gauge, but rather to think of the .410's merits in their own right. I'm basing it all on the Winchester load jmortimer linked.

First off, I wanted to know how much a 000 buck ball weighed (they don't put that information on buckshot boxes after all). I don't have 000 balls laying around, so I figured it mathematically. A standard 000 ball should be .36" in diameter, which would yield a volume around .400cc. Multiplied by the standard density of lead and then converting to grains puts us right at 70 grains per pellet.

At the listed velocity of 1135 fps, each pellet would have 200 ft/lbs of energy.
*I believe jmortimer cited 900 or 800 total, which would actually put each pellet at 160-180 ft/lbs. Maybe those were based on the energy farther down range. Or maybe the actual velocity is less than stated on the box. Or maybe the balls aren't quite 70 grains.

Whatever the case, for comparison, an 95-grain .380acp bullet at 955 fps has 192 ft/lbs of energy.

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that the .410 Winchester load is like hitting a target with five .380acp bullets at once. The 70 grain balls have a smaller diameter, less momentum, poorer sectional density, and NO type of bullet design. A true bullet can be designed for a desired balance of penetration and expansion, to destroy or disrupt an optimal amount of tissue and dump all its energy into a target. A spherical projectile can't really be tweaked to optimize the damage it causes.

Nonetheless, 160-200 ft/lbs of energy per ball is a significant amount, and maybe we could say shooting the .410 000 load is a little like shooting a target with five LRN .380 bullets.


I haven't seen anyone's results from patterning the .410 000 load, but from what I've read/heard, the patterns get ugly by 20 yards, but I've seen claims of 4" patterns at 7 yards out of a long gun, which is probably good enough for HD purposes.


Moving on, I was curious about how recoil would really come out (mathematically). I decided to check out Federal's 00 (9 pellet) reduced recoil 12 gauge load while I was at it. (I chose the reduced recoil version because its velocity is very similar to the .410 Winchester load)

- The weight of shot from the .410 load is about 350 grains. Weight of shot from the 12 gauge load is about 492 grains.
- I don't know the exact amount of powder used, but based on comparable reloading data, I estimated the .410 uses 15 grains of powder while the 12 gauge uses 25 grains.
- Velocities: 1135 fps for the .410; 1145 fps for the 12 gauge.
- For gun weight, I used Mossberg 500 specs: 6 pounds for the .410; 7.5 pounds for the 12 gauge.

Based on those figures entered into the Handloads.com recoil calculator, the .410 load showed 11.04 ft/lbs of free recoil, while the 12 gauge showed 18.59 ft/lbs of free recoil. In this case, the .410 has about 60% as much recoil as the 12-gauge.

It is worth noting, however, that many gas-operated 12-gauge may reduce felt recoil by about a third, which would make the perceived kick of the reduced recoil 12-gauge load similar to the Winchester .410 load while still throwing 40% more lead at the target. (Semi-auto .410s aren't much of an option)

In the end, my opinions are still about the same. I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge ...not because I think I'm a big tough guy, but because I'm very familiar with it and prefer the greater number of projectiles per shot (ideally, 15 pellets of #1). Plus I have a recoil reducing stock that negates much of that issue.

However, for anyone wanting wanting something lighter, quieter, and softer kicking, the .410 with Winchester 000 ammo seems like a legit option.

 

[biohazurd]

I wouldnt feel under gunned with a 410. I stash a mossberg 500 .410 with a pistol grip in my car sometime. Shooting the 12 with just pistol grip is brutal but the 410 is fun to shoot and suprisingly accurate at short range.

 

[Pfletch83]

@Theklawman

I can understand that you think more is better and in some cases I'll agree with you.

But with one you have to take the other.

What good is an ounce of lead at close range if the targeted threat isn't hit?

The user needs to learn how their scattergun will act no matter the gauge.

Also keep in mind that others in a family unit need to learn how to use the same HD weapon as the man of the house,and which would be easier to handle for a child a 12 gauge or a .410,what about an elderly family member,or the lady of the house that might not be thrilled about getting knocked around?

 

[TheKlawMan]

Go back and read what I have posted and I clearly acknowledged that there is a place for the .410. The problem is your claim that it was a great tool, when it isn't unless for reasons you are limited to one. If handling recoil is the problem, how does a gas operated 20 gauge semi stack up against a pump action .410 in the felt recoil department? Why would you think that a .410 would be more likely to hit a target than a 20 or a 12? As for the over penetration issue, I see you still won't confront it.

I am only on line this late becasue I had some thing a bit more important to do. The fact is that the .410 is generally a very poor choice for home defense.

If a young child, a woman, or an elderly person ever has to use a shotgun for Self Defense, I submit they are a lot better off with a 20 gauge auto loader than a pump .410. Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads).

 

[Pfletch83]

@ Klawman

I have stated that #4 Buck from any gauge will be more than enough for home defense.

I stated that '000' buck has a likely chance of punching through the threat.

I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).

as for the latest news on the little shotgun that can...seems to be a new round from hornady looks to be a better buck and "ball" load than the PDX-1 .410 from Winchester *I just hope it can be used in shotguns as well as the revolvers*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYVk4ugHc

 

[SHR970]

TheKlawMan originally wrote:You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment.

A true statement to be considered for any ammo choice.

Since we are looking at 410 penetration vis a vis a 12 gauge, how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher. This is one of the loads that so many on this forum are fond of. Federal Premium #1 buck ran from ~15-17.5" too. So for all those who would only look at the data point for the 410 ammo to discredit its use without looking at the data for the 12 gauge, you are doing yourself a disservice or engaging in cognitive dissonance.

Now as far as spread is concerned....at 7 yards you need to have your muzzle on target; pointing in the general direction doesn't cut the mustard. That holds true for a 12 gauge, a 410 bore, and everything in between.

On a parting note, I have noticed the trend over the last decade to make the mighty 12 gauge perform more like the smaller bores in both payload and velocity. If the smaller bores are so inferior, why all the effort to emulate the smaller slower payloads?

 

[jmortimer]

The reduced recoil slugs and buckshot that are not hard cast penetrate better than "full recoil loads."

 

[TheKlawMan]

how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher.

First, the LE127 to my knowledge is a general law enforcement load not specifically designed for HD

Which is why the first shells in my HD tube are Remington Ultra Home Defense high density BB loads and the last three are Federal Premium Personal Defense 00 (similar to LE127 but FPS is only 1145 FPS compared to 1325 FPS for the LE127). Then, if the Chinese Red Gaurd attacks along with the Cuban International Zombie Brigade I have an ample supply of slugs - ALL 12 Gauge.

I am amazed that anyone continues to argue the superiority of the .410. Their arguement boils down at best to it will get the job done if accurately delivered. The same is true of the .22 and I suppose of a rock if slung with the skill of David at Goliath. Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410.

 

[TheKlawMan]

I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).

Eventually when you began to back pedal on your original position which was that "The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool". To most of us, that means home defense and home defense confrontations most often occur inside the home. You only talked about triple ought's over penetration well AFTER I brought up the concerns with over penetration.