The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam
- Thread starter dZ
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Edmund Rowe
New member
M-16s in Gulf War: I heard that way before the fighting started that troops found they had to clean them often and dry lube helped since wet oil tended to attract the dusty sand.
Once the shooting started I never heard of any problems. Of course, with all that time to prep with BUFFs, arty, A-10s, F-111s etc. and the attack supported with MBTs, Bradleys, and whatnot it was pretty tough to get a rifle into action most of the time.
Back in Grenada I heard the Ranger's appraisal of their M-16s was, "When we shot the Cubans they fell down."
Note that I hear there is a world of difference between the M-16A1 and the M-16A2. One Marine I knew who was involved in the transition described them as "Different as night and day." Culver makes a good point that the M-16A2 is almost as heavy as an M-14 but with the downgrade in bullet performance.
I've heard a lot of the nightmare stories of the early M-16s. UGH. The transition was apparently rammed down the grunts' throats overnight with hardly a day of training on the new rifles.
According to the book, "The Black Rifle" a big part of the problem was the -16 was billed as "self-cleaning". I dunno what it is about US military procurement but there seems to be an unwritten rule on overselling the products merits. Back in the 60s-70s the F-15 fighter was billed as "never needing depot overhaul." Guess what I did for 8 years?? F-15 depot overhaul Engineering!! I hear similar "no depot maintenance" claims on stuff like the F-22 and the Comanche and I roll my eyes.
Also, Peter G. Kokalis (SOF small arms editor) has said repeatedly that just about ALL new military small arms have early problems. Even the M1 Garand had them. Unfortunately, it seems our military is set up so that our teething problems are 10 times worse than what they could/should be.
Culver's article on the IMR/ball powder/chamber problem of early M-16s is the best I've seen on the subject.
The future? Fortunately it seems that most of the world's militaries are going to micro-caliber performance, so for the most part grunts will all be in the same ballistic disadvantage. i.e. everyone will have about 200-300 yards effective range. Might be very good news for the sniper community.
The USMC may be on the right track with their Designated Marksman concept putting some 7.62 NATO riflemen back in each squad.
Edmund
Once the shooting started I never heard of any problems. Of course, with all that time to prep with BUFFs, arty, A-10s, F-111s etc. and the attack supported with MBTs, Bradleys, and whatnot it was pretty tough to get a rifle into action most of the time.
Back in Grenada I heard the Ranger's appraisal of their M-16s was, "When we shot the Cubans they fell down."
Note that I hear there is a world of difference between the M-16A1 and the M-16A2. One Marine I knew who was involved in the transition described them as "Different as night and day." Culver makes a good point that the M-16A2 is almost as heavy as an M-14 but with the downgrade in bullet performance.
I've heard a lot of the nightmare stories of the early M-16s. UGH. The transition was apparently rammed down the grunts' throats overnight with hardly a day of training on the new rifles.
According to the book, "The Black Rifle" a big part of the problem was the -16 was billed as "self-cleaning". I dunno what it is about US military procurement but there seems to be an unwritten rule on overselling the products merits. Back in the 60s-70s the F-15 fighter was billed as "never needing depot overhaul." Guess what I did for 8 years?? F-15 depot overhaul Engineering!! I hear similar "no depot maintenance" claims on stuff like the F-22 and the Comanche and I roll my eyes.
Also, Peter G. Kokalis (SOF small arms editor) has said repeatedly that just about ALL new military small arms have early problems. Even the M1 Garand had them. Unfortunately, it seems our military is set up so that our teething problems are 10 times worse than what they could/should be.
Culver's article on the IMR/ball powder/chamber problem of early M-16s is the best I've seen on the subject.
The future? Fortunately it seems that most of the world's militaries are going to micro-caliber performance, so for the most part grunts will all be in the same ballistic disadvantage. i.e. everyone will have about 200-300 yards effective range. Might be very good news for the sniper community.
The USMC may be on the right track with their Designated Marksman concept putting some 7.62 NATO riflemen back in each squad.
Edmund
Edmund, surely you must know that all you need to do maintenance on the F-22 is run Norton Disk Doctor after every flight! And if you run into triple-A, they've even got a "defrag" utility.
Given the money DoD is spending on OICW and *not* spending on training ammo, I guess the current philosophy is "We can miss faster than you guys."
Given the money DoD is spending on OICW and *not* spending on training ammo, I guess the current philosophy is "We can miss faster than you guys."
I was never in the military, so I obviously can't comment on the M16. I do have a question, though, about the 5.56 cartridge.
I've heard that its purpose was not to kill, but rather to injure, the idea being that a wounded soldier required 5 guys to be taken out of combat to tend to him, instead of just
having one dead enemy soldier to deal with.
Any truth to this?
Thanks,
Dick
I've heard that its purpose was not to kill, but rather to injure, the idea being that a wounded soldier required 5 guys to be taken out of combat to tend to him, instead of just
having one dead enemy soldier to deal with.
Any truth to this?
Thanks,
Dick
Edmund Rowe
New member
Ivanhoe:
With the way the military-industrial complex is headed, maybe they'd be happier to buy a new F-22 every time one had problems!
Monkeyleg:
The concept of wounding enemy soldier instead of killing them I think came from Mao Tse-Tung. Not sure of that though. I think it has a lot to do with guerilla warfare thinking.
Modern rifle ammo is prohibited from creating excessive suffering to enemy soldiers due to some Geneva or Hague treaty. Therefore, most military ammo is FMJ since around the turn of the century. 1900, that is.
Wound effects of most military ammo didn't begin until the 80s. (Dr Martin Fackler is the only name I've heard for extensive study on international military bullet effects), well after the international acceptance of FMJ ammo for military use. Now, Dr. Fackler does say military FMJ rifle ammo is better for creating wounds in most cases compared to other rifle ammo, but since the bullet designs predate the research by 20, 30, maybe even 50-80 years or so, I don't think the "wounding" effect was intentional.
Even M-16 M-193 55 gr ammo's tumbling/fragmenting effects inside human bodies was more of an accident than on purpose.
OK, now that I've gone over the history, my own opinion is that the wounding/5 to take care of 1 philosophy may have a place in guerilla warfare but on a conventional battlefield it doesn't work too well. I may be presumptuous on the mind of the GI Joe Grunt, but I would figure they'd more often than not shoot to utterly finish the opposition. In short, GI Joe wants to finish off Herman the German or Ivan the Russky or Chang the Chicom, not see him leave to the field hospital where he'll come back maybe smarter and tougher the next fight.
On another note, back in the Cold War the Soviets basically put minimal importance on taking care of their wounded. They probably heard the Mao philosophy, also, so they solve the problem by not putting too many resources into the wounded in the first place. I dunno how well the philosophy took, since accounts I read of Russians in Afghanistan seem to say that a grunt will take care of his wounded buddy that he's been through 2 years of fighting with. However, the hospital/medic support isn't nearly as much as NATO soldiers expect. Anyway, Asian-philosophy militarys often have the same attitude of "too bad" for the wounded.
So what I'm saying is the Maoist philosophy of wounding may work best when used in a guerilla warfare mode on a western miltary. Otherwise its mostly just a military science discussion.
Hope that helps.
Edmund
With the way the military-industrial complex is headed, maybe they'd be happier to buy a new F-22 every time one had problems!
Monkeyleg:
The concept of wounding enemy soldier instead of killing them I think came from Mao Tse-Tung. Not sure of that though. I think it has a lot to do with guerilla warfare thinking.
Modern rifle ammo is prohibited from creating excessive suffering to enemy soldiers due to some Geneva or Hague treaty. Therefore, most military ammo is FMJ since around the turn of the century. 1900, that is.
Wound effects of most military ammo didn't begin until the 80s. (Dr Martin Fackler is the only name I've heard for extensive study on international military bullet effects), well after the international acceptance of FMJ ammo for military use. Now, Dr. Fackler does say military FMJ rifle ammo is better for creating wounds in most cases compared to other rifle ammo, but since the bullet designs predate the research by 20, 30, maybe even 50-80 years or so, I don't think the "wounding" effect was intentional.
Even M-16 M-193 55 gr ammo's tumbling/fragmenting effects inside human bodies was more of an accident than on purpose.
OK, now that I've gone over the history, my own opinion is that the wounding/5 to take care of 1 philosophy may have a place in guerilla warfare but on a conventional battlefield it doesn't work too well. I may be presumptuous on the mind of the GI Joe Grunt, but I would figure they'd more often than not shoot to utterly finish the opposition. In short, GI Joe wants to finish off Herman the German or Ivan the Russky or Chang the Chicom, not see him leave to the field hospital where he'll come back maybe smarter and tougher the next fight.
On another note, back in the Cold War the Soviets basically put minimal importance on taking care of their wounded. They probably heard the Mao philosophy, also, so they solve the problem by not putting too many resources into the wounded in the first place. I dunno how well the philosophy took, since accounts I read of Russians in Afghanistan seem to say that a grunt will take care of his wounded buddy that he's been through 2 years of fighting with. However, the hospital/medic support isn't nearly as much as NATO soldiers expect. Anyway, Asian-philosophy militarys often have the same attitude of "too bad" for the wounded.
So what I'm saying is the Maoist philosophy of wounding may work best when used in a guerilla warfare mode on a western miltary. Otherwise its mostly just a military science discussion.
Hope that helps.
Edmund
Norm Augustine (recently retired CEO of Martin Marietta) has a humorous outlook on defense procurement. he has a quote along the lines of, "In the year 1995, the entire defense budget will be used to acquire one new fighter. The Air Force will fly it four days a week, the Marine Corps gets one day, and the Navy gets it over the weekend."
The F-22 would not cost that much more than an F-16, *if* we bought them in large batches like we have the F-16.
The F-22 would not cost that much more than an F-16, *if* we bought them in large batches like we have the F-16.