The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam

D

dZ

New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The following story is one that I tell with some trepidation, since my experience(s)
with the "Matty Mattel Mouse Guns" were not pleasant
ones. In this time and place far separated from the grim reality of kill or be
killed, the bitter memories of the "little black rifle that wouldn’t
shoot" have started blending into the mists of long forgotten firefights. Some of
the bitterness of those days of long ago will no doubt color the
story somewhat, but in order for the reader to understand the story from the
perspective of those of us who experienced the frustration, this is
probably unavoidable. There seemed to be a callous disregard for the lives and well
being of those individuals who willingly fought and often
died using a seriously flawed rifle. This is their story then, for those who went
in harm's way with the XM16E1, and most of all, for those who
didn’t come back. May their sacrifices never be forgotten.[/quote] http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

[This message has been edited by dZ (edited March 07, 2000).]
 
G

Gale McMillan

Member In Memoriam
In my association with Seal Team Six and some of Dicks black operations I had a lot to do with Super Chief Johnny Johnson I found out that he had been carried home on a stretcher each of three tours. The first time when he was over run with his M16 Jammed and inoperative. The next tour he carried a M14 most of the tour until they refused to let him carry it. Since his Prime mos was medic the first choice was 45 auto and he elected to carry it 0ne and a half tours. He hated the m16 so badly and said he would have rather carried nothing as to carry the M16
 
M

mcshot

New member
Interesting review of the M16s history. I qualified with the P.O.S. in 1968 and am glad I didn't have to rely on it.
To this day I just can't get enthused enuf to own one of these toys. ;)

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"Keep shootin till they quit floppin"
The Wife 2/2000
 
D

Destructo6

New member
Although it was designed and adopted long before I was born, I, too, am dismayed that the AR has been in service longer than even the Garand (longest service life, period?). It was a bad decision then, and it's a bad decision to remain with it.

I like the size, ergonomics, weight, and cartridge of the AR, but I don't like the design. It's fine for a civillian that can afford the time to keep it clean and lubed properly, but it's a poor service weapon.

Personally, I think the US should adopt something along the lines of the South African R4/R5 or Israeli Galil. Maybe the G36 would be a good choice, too.

Makes you wonder that if the US adopted the FAL instead of the M14, would the US have ever adopted the AR?
 
?

.

New member
Destructo6,

Capitalism - it isn't a dirty word, it's reality.



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Mykl
~~~~~
"If you really want to know what's going on;
then, you have to follow the money trail."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
O

orsogato

New member
Destructo6,

YOu have been slightly misinformed. The longest service life of any U.S. service rifle was the .30 cal 1903 Springfield Rifle. It went from 1903 to 1936 (Year Garand Came In)

And was still used well into the 50's.

Early on in wwII Marines still used the 03A3. Many G.I.s in North Africa had the Standard Issue rifle also. It was also the mainstay Sniper weapon (the 03a4)


In other militaries throughout the world I think longest service life honors goes to the m98 mauser or the FAL. Not sure on that though.

my .02 history lesson
 
D

Destructo6

New member
I was referring to US service rifles and included a '?' to denote uncertainty. If the Springfield was the standard service rifle from 1903 to 1936 that puts its service life at 33 years. The AR was adopted around 1965 to the current date, which puts its service life at 35 years and counting.
 
A

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
SOF magazine had an article about the M 16 problems, some four or six years ago. No particular with their story and the linked article.

A slight variation on caus-and-effect was that the original use of IMR powder was protested by the Olin Corporation. Olin wanted in on the act, figuring that since Colt was getting paid for rifles, Olin should "contribute to the cause" by selling ammo.

Ball powder leaves more residue than the IMR; it did indeed increase the cyclic rate of fire, and the obduration became a problem.

So greed and politicking led to a bad package; CYA led to any rational solution taking an undue number of years. And so good men died.

There are times, when one considers the apparently increasing instances of this sort, that maintaining a positive attitude about loyalty and patriotism becomes rather difficult.

:(, Art
 
D

dZ

New member
i found inside .gov an index reference to:
M-16 rifle subcommittee - 4.104, 4.117

maybe i will see what it takes to get a copy of the report from the 60's

dZ
 
J

Jack 99

New member
The M16 is just a tad less rugged than I would like if I were going into a combat zone. That said, its not all that bad, either. The positive aspects of the rifle outweigh the negatives, overall.

The original purchase was by the Air Force for airbase security purposes. The M16 is probably ideal in that role. Its not really a "battle rifle" and the real issue is the military trying to make it something it may not be. These days, the role of the military has changed and so has the idea of a main infantry rifle. Most soldiers are now technicians and its a lot easier to string comm lines or set up radar equipment with an M4 on your shoulder than an M14. We do need another option though for front line infantry.

BTW, McNamara is the one who loved the M16 and shoved it through the system before it was ready.
 
I

Ivanhoe

New member
if McNamara loved the M16, it is because JFK loved it. I have read that JFK got to play around with an AR prototype, and he really dug the thing. recall that JFK was an NRA life member. I wouldn't be surprised if McNamara and his cronies had a financial interest in Colt. as the saying goes, follow the money.

its funny to read all the anti-M16 stuff. I frequently read memoirs of Vietnam vets, particularly of the various spec ops types, and most of them really liked the M16. then I read stuff from regular grunts, and they mostly hated it. its almost as if there were two different models.
 
V

VIETNAM-SAM-USMC

New member
I remember the day well, Christmas Day 1967, Cam Lo, Vietnam. They lined us up to recieve a Christmas present from Uncle Sam, brand new M-16 rifles, with the new bird cage flash supressors, way better than the old 3-prong ones that would get snaged on vines going through the bush! Every morning before going out on patrol, we had rifle inspection, and God help the Marine who had a dirty rifle! The Sargent's boot would be so far up his ass that his helmet would fly 50 yards! I never had a problem, as long as it was cleaned and lubed daily! Our lives depended on it, and Marines are known for keeping their weapons in Tip-Top (Killing) shape!
 
A

Alfadog

New member
I have no personal experience with the M-16/AR-15, but my stepfather was in country in '67-'68 when the M-16 was first issued. Most of those issued to his unit couldn't get through one magazine without jamming and eventually found their way to the bottom of a river. The men in his unit preferred to us captured AKs when they could get them.

My stepfather was also not impressed with the stopping power of the 5.56mm, having been accidentally shot with an M-16. Now that I think about it, the only issue firearm I have ever heard him speak fondly of was the .50 BMG.
 
H

Hard Ball

New member
One problem with the initial issue of M16 rifles in Vietnam was that only three 20 round magazines were issued with each rifle. Four hundred rounds were to be carried. This meant that only 60 rounds were available in magazines for instant use, The other 340 were carried in 20 round cardboard boxes and had to be loaded into the empty magazines before they could be used. Reloading empty magazines repeatedly under fire was not popular with the troops.

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"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
 
D

DAL

New member
I've got no battlefield experience (thank goodness) with the M-16, but when I did my stint in the Army, I liked my rifle. I was quite handy with it, and I loved its accuracy; I only wish I could have fired it more.

Having said that, though, I'll defer to those who have had battlefield expeience with the M-16 and who give it marginal marks for reliability. I kept my rifle very clean, but I realize this isn't always possible in the field. A battlefield rifle should be able to fire under nearly any condition, dirty or not.
DAL

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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA
 
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