The Police Just Left My House, Part II

kmaysob said:
what would the consequences be of going outside with gun HOLSTERED on your side,and holding them until the police show up

Well, one consequence is that you would give up whatever legal protections the Castle Doctrine offers you once you step outside the premises as defined by your state's law.

rha600 said:
however I live in florida where if someone is standing in my house (my garage is part of my house) and I am not shooting them in the back as he's running away, I have every right to put a really big hole in him.

Yeah, Florida law doesn't say that.

So no, I would not be committing murder.

It might be a murder that was hard to prove; but under Florida law, it would still be murder as you described it.

scrubcedar said:
Had you lived in Colorado the only fact that is important is were they on your property with or without your approval. If the answer is without you may open fire no other facts needed as long as they stayed on your property.

:rolleyes: Is there some kind of contest of the ridiculous that I missed? How are these little pieces of bad legal advice helpful in a Tactics or Training perspective?
 

Onward Allusion

New member
Frank Ettin

Quote:
Originally Posted by rha600

Quote:
...while he was holding the guy at shotgun point, the guy was talking up a blue streak and threatened that if my neighbor didn't let him go, he and his buddies would return and harm the wife and children...

And it's at that point that I would have pulled the trigger.

In which case you would have committed murder.

Maybe. ;)
 
Posted by Joe Pike: I believe in Missouri that I would have been within in my right to shoot the guy that was at my carport door since his head, shoulder and arm was in my house while he was trying to defeat the lock.
Maybe. But probably not.

The section of the black law to which you are alluding speaks of the use of deadly force against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by the actor. Such force is justified, with limitations.

The problem lies with what is not written in the black law. The jury instructions place additional limitations that have to do with whether the occupant had reason to believe that he or she or others were in imminent danger at the time.

The jury instructions have been approved by the Missouri Supreme Court, so it is not necessary to speculate about what would happen in the event of an appeal.

As I understand things, justification depends upon whether the homeowner is "put in fear of unlawful force", which is not defined. Imminent fear of death or serous bodily harm is not required. One of the authors of the jury instructions stated "you have to have a reasonable belief that it is necessary to defend yourself from the imminent use of unlawful force."

Lay people often say something like "in my state, the law says I can shoot someone....", "the law authorizes me to shoot....", or "I am within my rights to shoot if....". I really do not like that phraseology. The law really does not "authorize" any citizen to shoot another.

Rather, the laws are written in such a way that when one finds it immediately necessary to shoot another person for self-preservation or to prevent certain forcible felonies, he or she will be excused for having done so, depending upon the circumstances.

The laws vary among jurisdictions.
 
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Joe_Pike

New member
Maybe. But probably not.

The section of the black law to which you are alluding speaks of the use of deadly force against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by the actor. Such force is justified, with limitations.

The problem lies with what is not written in the black law. The jury instructions place additional limitations that have to do with whether the occupant had reason to believe that he or she or others were in imminent danger at the time.

The jury instructions have been approved by the Missouri Supreme Courts, so it is not necessary to speculate about what would happen in the event of an appeal.

As I understand things, justification depends upon whether the homeowner is "put in fear of unlawful force", which is not defined. Imminent fear of death or serous bodily harm is not required. One of the authors of the jury instructions stated "you have to have a reasonable belief that it is necessary to defend yourself from the imminent use of unlawful force."

Lay people often say something like "in my state, the law says I can shoot someone....", "the law authorizes me to shoot....", or "I am within my rights to shoot if....". I really do not like that phraseology. The law really does not "authorize" any citizen to shoot another.

Rather, the laws are written in such a way that when one finds it immediately necessary to shoot another person for self-preservation or to prevent certain forcible felonies, he or she will be excused for having done so, depending upon the circumstances.

The laws vary among jurisdictions.

Sometimes it seems fuzzy here in MO. When you take a CCW class they tell you that you can use the force that a "reasonable man" would use in the same situation. I feel that I am a "reasonable man" and I didn't feel that my life was in danger...at that point. There was a news story a few years ago here in the town I live in about a lady shooting someone through her sliding glass door. The guy was wounded and then arrested at the Hospital. No charges were brought against her.

I choose to err on the side of caution. I would use force if I did feel in imminent danger, but I have no desire to do so. Sometimes I feel that some folks look forward to a day where they can use deadly force.
 

output

New member
So your house was targeted once, and as a result you have changed absolutely nothing?

The best protection is…prevention.

You want to make your house look as uninviting as possible. Install better lighting, invest in a security system, or just buy some security stickers and signs (even if you don’t decide to install an active alarm.) and display them on your windows and lawn.

Having a plan and calm demeanor as you described are good but ultimately you want to try and avoid the use of lethal force.

Can anything be done to prevent a criminal from looking at your residence and immediately thinking “perfect” easy money!
 

DaveMN

New member
Wow freaky situation. I am glad it wasn't worse. Time to get Motion lights and a rottie lol.

I would however like to point out a potential issue. Double keyed deadbolts can kill you if you ever have a fire in your house. Always keep a spare set of keys near the floor within easy access.
Magnetic Keyboxes work great if you have an appliance near the door.

If you have ever been in a house full of smoke trying to unlock locks with a key is a nightmare.

I had friends who were killed that way. All 3 of them found by the door with keys in their hands.

Anyway just something to think about!
 

dave9969

New member
you know there is a really low tech solution to this issue.
Get a dog.
A barker will scare off 99% of door shakers and window breakers while giving you plenty of notice before hand.

If you get past my dogs bark, you can meet my bite.
 

Joe_Pike

New member
So your house was targeted once, and as a result you have changed absolutely nothing?

The best protection is…prevention.

You want to make your house look as uninviting as possible. Install better lighting, invest in a security system, or just buy some security stickers and signs (even if you don’t decide to install an active alarm.) and display them on your windows and lawn.

Having a plan and calm demeanor as you described are good but ultimately you want to try and avoid the use of lethal force.

Can anything be done to prevent a criminal from looking at your residence and immediately thinking “perfect” easy money!

My house is small and uninviting. It is nothing special. The front is lit up like a Christmas tree by the flood lights from the building across the street. If they look at me and my house as easy money hen they have really low expectations. And, I didn't say that I changed nothing. I made the back doors nearly impossible to get in through without using some sort of battering ram.

I would however like to point out a potential issue. Double keyed deadbolts can kill you if you ever have a fire in your house. Always keep a spare set of keys near the floor within easy access.
Magnetic Keyboxes work great if you have an appliance near the door.

Front door is not keyed as I don't have windows in that door.

you know there is a really low tech solution to this issue.
Get a dog.
A barker will scare off 99% of door shakers and window breakers while giving you plenty of notice before hand.

I'm not home enough to have a dog or I would.
 

output

New member
The front is lit up like a Christmas tree by the flood lights from the building across the street.

I am sorry but...the building "across" the street has nothing to do with “your” house. Your home does not need to look like it is worth a million dollars. It just needs to look like an “easy target” with a $15.00 dollar TV inside. Burglars and criminals want to take the path of least resistance. If your residence looks like an easy target it is probably because it is. If “small and uninviting” means your residence in small and unlit…you need to fix it. “Low expectations” and easy money are one-in-the-same IMO.

To reiterate criminals purposely pick the easiest targets possible. That normally makes smaller or older looking homes the first target. They are looking for a poorly illuminated house hoping no one is home or that an elderly person is home and sound asleep.

I wish I kept some articles/studies I read for reference. Now I am sorry I did not.
 

Joe_Pike

New member
Well, I'll put it this way then. My house is one of the least desirable houses to look at in the neighborhood and is better illuminated than most. There is certainly no reason for anyone to think I'm an easy target unless they think a 52 year old fat guy is easy pickens. If that's the case then I can count on attempted break-ins on a regular basis. You cannot see into any window in my house that would give you an idea about what is in it. In fact, there isn't much of value that is in it except a few firearms but no one should know that because I'm not one of those guys with a big Glock sticker on my car window letting everyone know that I have guns.

Home invasions, unfortunately, happen everyday to all kinds of people. I'm just luckier than most that my number has been pulled twice in the last 6 months.
 

B.N.Real

New member
Guy sticks his hand inside my broken window,he might get it back. :D

We got chef's knives right near the back door.

Does wonders for holding a suspect for police when his hand is stuck to the INSIDE of a door he's trying to break into.

Not advocating that at all.;)
 

scrubcedar

New member
Old marksman, these are the exact words of the law and case law citing a specific case. Colorado Law concerning the Use of Deadly Force
Does Colorado have a "Make My Day" law? YES. Passed in 1985.

18-1-704.5 Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.
(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

(4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.



Does Colorado law allow the use of physical force in defense of a person (outside of the home)? YES.

18-1-704 Use of physical force in defense of a person.
(1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:


(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or

(b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or

Fact1 The burgler attempted to get in the house to trigger the Law, could've been shot dead there.
Fact2 The presumable reason for continuing to stay on the property under the carport was because he was trying to figure out another way to get in, triggering the law directly above, reread the last bit carefully. If he managed to get back in and was confronted by the homeowner I think we can all assume a violent confrontation. Section b above is very clear.

I can hear you shouting that there had to be another crime or some threat of violence. Before you get too set on that opinion read about the Zoey Ripple case. Here is the summation Good old Zoey got herself seriously drunk, broke into a couples home and wandered around. The couple shouted from another room asking who was there, she was too drunk to notice or answer.
They shot her. She had no weapon and was not even burglarising the place. The fact that she was there was enough to justify the shooting in the eyes of the DA of the peoples republic of boulder and these people think San Franciscans are right wing crazies. If there was a way to prosecute it would have happened. This law was one of the last gems produced before the transplanted Californians took over politics there. The law itself and case law illustrating my point. That being said you'll notice I agreed that what he did was not only the right thing but the best thing.
 
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Hansam

New member
Guy sticks his hand inside my broken window,he might get it back.

We got chef's knives right near the back door.

Does wonders for holding a suspect for police when his hand is stuck to the INSIDE of a door he's trying to break into.

Not advocating that at all.

I encounter people who say this fairly frequently. I also have a friend who likes firearms but distrusts them (doesn't like the idea of a loaded firearm in his home with his 4 yr old boy despite I have an infant, a 3 yr old, a 4 yr old, an 8 yr old and a 14 yr old and I keep loaded firearms in my home). He instead chooses to keep a katana at his bedside. I keep telling him its a bad move for several reasons but he won't listen. His idea is he's going to take up the katana when he hears someone break into his home and go hack them to pieces if they don't leave.

Frankly I think the idea of closing on an intruder to attack them with a melee weapon of any sort is already in a grey area if not just asking for legal troubles. Think of it even in states with a stand your ground law and/or castle doctrine you're not just standing your ground anymore. You're actually making an advance on the intruder to attack them. I remember speaking with our state's Attorney General after the our state adopted a castle doctrine and basically he told me that advancing on the intruder to attack him/her with a melee weapon could be construed as assault with a deadly weapon and depending on your DA you could be facing felony assault charges.

Legalities aside there are also issues with closing on a possibly armed (with a firearm) intruder with a melee weapon. My guess is you'll just get yourself shot. Of course I've gotten the argument that they've got specific hiding spots that they can wait in till the intruder passes them then they can jump out and take them down from the side or from behind. Of course umm... that then relates back to the above paragraph regarding assault with a deadly weapon.

Basically cutting at the intruder is just a bad idea all around.
 
Posted by scrubcedar: Old marksman, these are the exact words of the law and case law citing a specific case. Colorado Law concerning the Use of Deadly Force ....
I have no idea what you are trying to say. None of it contradicts anything I have said.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
scrubcedar,

In post 12 you wrote (emphasis added):
...Had you lived in Colorado the only fact that is important is were they on your property with or without your approval. If the answer is without you may open fire no other facts needed as long as they stayed on your property....
That is absolutely wrong, as pointed out by OldMarksman.

In post 32, you quoted part of Colorado law, specifically 18-1-704.5(2), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
...any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant...
So under the statute you, yourself, quoted, the occupant must be able to show the following facts in order to justify the use of deadly force:

  1. The person against whom the force is used made an unlawful entry into the dwelling; and

  2. The occupant reasonably believes that person has committed a crime in the dwelling or is committing or intends to commit a crime; and

  3. The occupant reasonably believes that person might use physical force against the occupant.
That is a very long way from just having to show the guy you shot was on your property without your approval.

And, note that the occupant must show facts that support an inference that his beliefs on the various points was reasonable.
 

scrubcedar

New member
The first thing you're not understanding is the law was written as broadly as possible. Let's take the example I used (the drunken co-ed)and take it apart using your points. Did she break in? yes. Was she going to commit another crime? No evidence of that any where and I looked for LE quotes as well as reports from the DA very carefully. Theft of food maybe? how could you tell?"when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant."Aha! now we find the phrase that explains it! This was a 20 y.o. 120lb coed who's blood alcohol was .20 at that point she would not likely be coordinated enough to walk straight let alone attack somebody. But she might be!, who knows. Prove that there was no chance she was dangerous AND I knew it! anybody MIGHT use force once they have broken into your home. Notice as well the phrase" no matter how slight".By your reading of the law they should have been charged. They were not! This is the Boulder DA, every gun grabber in the nation is on his speed dial. The intent of the law was you don't have to wait for him to make the first move. He's assumed to be the aggressor because he's in your home. The actual words of the law are quite deliberately vague and place the onus on the DA to prove that you were acting completely unreasonably. The situation once they are in your home is so fluid and dangerous it would be nearly impossible to prove you KNEW you were in no danger and fired anyway.

The piece of the puzzle about outside the home is a little less clear but case law backs that up too. I can find an example if you'd like. Lets take the situation that started this thread. Let's say the guy is on your front lawn walking toward your house with a crowbar at 3am. I think we can all assume he's not here to play tiddlywinks. At that point this kicks in:
18-1-704 Use of physical force in defense of a person.
(1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:


(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or

(b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or

It is reasonable to assume at this point that he is going to break in to your house and if he finds you there injure or kill you,this is imminent use of unlawful physical force. Thus fulfilling the requirements for sections 1 and 2, a and b. He's hanging around in your carport afterwards. Once again, to play tiddlywinks? No, he's still trying to get in! At which point does the law apply again? tougher call but probably still what if he figures out a way in? This type of scenario was SPECIFICALLY debated on the floor and was provided for on purpose. The part that was misleading was I couldn't find the complete text as well as several examples. Dad was a mover and shaker in Southern Colorado politics when this happened we all followed the story and I got to talk to those involved at the time. DA's and legal experts were brought on to the TV all assuring us that this was going to lead to legalized murder. Looking back the text I found wasn't as clear as it could have been. Do a little google searching about how the law has actually been applied and you may find you agree with me.
 
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MLeake

New member
scrubcedar, if I understand the way the system works, the problem with your argument is that a decision not to charge by the DA does not actually set any legal precedent.

If I understand things correctly, precedent won't be set until a situation results in a trial, a verdict is rendered, and that verdict is appealed. IE, the lowest level at which a binding precedent is set is at the appellate level, and even then that precedent only applies to courts under the jurisidiction of that appellate court - although it can be used in an advisory capacity by courts outside the jurisdiction of the appellate court.

So, until you can cite cases in your area that have been successfully appealed (in favor of the shooter), you are basically gambling on the interpretations of the DA you draw, and the jury you draw. (Again, assuming my understanding is correct - I am NOT a lawyer.)
 

scrubcedar

New member
I could probably find you examples but read my post again I remembered something I left out and was editing it when you posted. It might explain it for you. The Law was written in 1985 and as I recall went through appeals not long afterward. Came out completely intact. The point of the law was to rein in bad DA's who were charging people who shouldn't have been.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
scrubcedar said:
The first thing you're not understanding is the law...
The first thing you're not understanding is that I'm a lawyer and I've done this sort of a thing for a living for more than 30 years. I can read a statute.

scrubcedar said:
...Let's take the example I used (the drunken co-ed)and take it apart using your points. Did she break in? yes. Was she going to commit another crime? No evidence of that any where and I looked for LE quotes as well as reports from the DA very carefully...
You have no idea what is in the investigation file, what was said in the investigatory interviews with the participants or how the evidence was viewed by the DA. All you know is what was published in the news, and I guarantee that there's a lot more.

For example, it's entirely possible the DA concluded, based on the way the householder told his story and given the girl's lack of response to repeated challenges, the householder would be able to establish to a jury's satisfaction that the householder reasonably believed that she intended to commit a crime and to use force.

scrubcedar said:
...The actual words of the law are quite deliberately vague and place the onus on the DA to prove that you were acting unreasonably. The situation once they are in your home is so fluid and dangerous it would be nearly impossible to prove you KNEW you were in no danger and fired anyway...
I recommend that you make some effort to educate yourself on how a plea of self defense works.

Here's a link to an excellent discussion written by an experienced lawyer and published in the journal of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

And I wrote this overview here:
I. How Pleading Self Defense Works

In general, if you're accused of a crime it's up to the State to prove your guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But things work a little differently if you are pleading self defense.

Basically --

[1] The prosecutor must prove the elements of the underlying crime beyond a reasonable doubt -- basically that you intentionally shot the guy. But if you are pleading self defense, you will have admitted that, so we go to step 2.

[2] Now you must present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. Depending on the State, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you may not have to convince the jury. But you will have to at least present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

[3] Now it's the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not act in justified self defense.

Let's go through that again.

In an ordinary criminal prosecution, the defendant doesn't have to say anything. He doesn't have to present any evidence. The entire burden falls on the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

If the crime you're charged with is, for example, manslaughter, the prosecution must prove that you were there, you fired the gun, you intended to fire the gun (or were reckless), and the guy you shot died. In the typical manslaughter prosecution, the defendant might by way of his defense try to plant a seed that you weren't there (alibi defense), or that someone else might have fired the gun, or that it was an accident. In each case the defendant doesn't have to actually prove his defense. He merely has to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.

But if you are going to be claiming self defense, you will wind up admitting all the elements of what would, absent legal justification, constitute a crime. You will necessarily admit that you were there, that you fired the gun, and that you intended to shoot the decedent. Your defense is that your use of lethal force in self defense satisfied the applicable legal standard and that, therefore, it was justified.

So now you would have to affirmatively present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In some jurisdictions, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you don't have to convince the jury. But you will at least have to present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all elements necessary under the applicable law to justify your conduct.

Then it will be the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury (in some jurisdictions, he will have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt) that you did not act in justified self defense. And even if you didn't have to prove self defense (only present a prima facie case), the less convincing your story, and your evidence, is, the easier it will be for the prosecutor to meet his rebuttal burden....

scrubcedar said:
...It is reasonable to assume at this point that he is going to break in to your house and if he finds you there injure or kill you,this is imminent use of unlawful physical force...
No, in the law one may not assume anything unless the law specifically allows what is called a presumption. The self defense laws in some States do provide for a presumption, e. g., the Florida Castle Doctrine at 776.013:
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.​

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:...
But Colorado law, as you've quoted it, doesn't provide for such a presumption.

MLeake said:
...if I understand the way the system works, the problem with your argument is that a decision not to charge by the DA does not actually set any legal precedent.

If I understand things correctly, precedent won't be set until a situation results in a trial, a verdict is rendered, and that verdict is appealed. IE, the lowest level at which a binding precedent is set is at the appellate level, and even then that precedent only applies to courts under the jurisidiction of that appellate court - although it can be used in an advisory capacity by courts outside the jurisdiction of the appellate court...
That's correct.

scrubcedar said:
...The Law was written in 1985 and as I recall went through appeals not long afterward...
Then please provide citations so that we can all see what the court of appeal said.
 

silvermane_1

New member
interesting thread, but i think that any(sane) DA doesn't want bring felony charges to a person defending they're home/residence from an intruder, because of the fact that it sends the message your not safe in your own home/residence, even in the areas where there are laws that you're not allow to use deadly force against an intruder(which is a bizzare law/idea, but i'm sure there are places where that is law), IMHO i think that there should be a federal stand your ground/home is a castle law.
 
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