The Nine Still Beats Em All!

B

BrokenArrow

New member
"There are two additional pieces of information: average recovered diameter
(ARD) and average penetration (AP). Both of these refer to results in human
targets." Evan Marshal, p56, GunWorld, March 2001

So the hot 9s go deeper and/or get bigger than most of the 40/357 S&M loads in "real people"?

Fed 115 +P+ 13.8/.71
Win 115 +P+ 13.5/.73
Rem 115 +P+ 15.5/.64

Fed 124 +P+ HS 14/.67
Rem 124 +P GS 13.7/.67
Speer 124 +P GD 13.4/.70

125/357SIG Fed 12.2/.62
125/357S GD 12.8/.65
125/357S Win 12.8/.64

125/357Mag Fed 11.2/.73
125/357M Rem 12.4/.58
125/357M GD 13.2/.69

165/40 GS 13.8/.70
155/40 GD 14.1/.67
155/40 HS 13.7/.72
180/40 BT 15.7/.68
180/40 HS 15.5/.65
180/40 GD 12.5/.64

And even some 45s

230/45 GD 12.3/.66
230/45 GS 11/.73
185/45 GS 12.3/.68

According to the above, the USSS/Texas DPS, FBI SWAT/HRT etc are taking a bigger beatin' for nuthin' w their new 357s and 45s?

So much for under penetration of the nine, and over penetration of the 357/40/45?

This new info oughta make some people go ballistic? :)



[Edited by BrokenArrow on 02-14-2001 at 12:52 PM]
 
C

Chad Young

New member
Unfortunately, all data from Marshall and Sanow can only be regarded as dubious at best. They consistently refuse to reveal sources or raw data for review. Based on statistical errors, lack of peer review, and poorly defined methodologies, I have come to the conclusion that all Marshall and Sanow data is of little more than anecdotal value, and is of little actual value.

In short, in my opinion, Marshal and Sanow's "real world" data is pure bovine fecal matter.

Gimme a sec to put on my asbestos long johns before people start flaming me.
 
M

Mikul

New member
I really don't understand how a 9mm can outperform a .357 Magnum. They're roughly the same bullet diameter and the .357 is traveling MUCH faster.
 
O

Onslaught

New member
Although I cannot dispute THIS particular mathematical offering of RD/PD, please allow me to add this to the fray...

In reading the Sanow website, specifically the explanation of how the statistics are collected, I was SLAPPED in the face by one ovbious flaw...

Paragraph 2, sentence 1:
"Multiple hits have to be discarded."

Although there is an "explanation" of why this data is still valid with multiple shots or hits discarded, it's still FLAWED DATA.

Scientifically speaking, multiple shots MAY mean cartridge ineffectiveness. Also, if you fire ONCE, and the individual DOESN'T fall down, AREN'T you going to SHOOT AGAIN??? For this reason, although SOME of the multiple shots fired COULD be panic fire, you CANNOT rule out that SOME multiple shots that ACTUALLY strike the target (and in my opinion, most) will NOT be panic fire, but actually a neccessary follow-up shot due to the failure of the first shot. Additionally, how many people, laying down PANIC fire, could strike the torso with multiple hits?

Hey CHAD, can I borrow your 'bestos suit when yer done? :D

But wait, before I sound like a COMPLETE jerk, let me say that this is NOT a flame toward BA, as I have always enjoyed his posts, AND his humor, and I appreciate this particular info.... :) Peace!
 
B

BrokenArrow

New member
I knew ya would like it! :)

I'm still tryin' ta figure out how ya get _avg_ penetration depths in people so deep when most people are only 9-12 inches deep and 12-15 inches wide at the torso? An awful lot of angled/cross torso shots in big guys? Including forearms/upper arms?
 
V

viesczy

New member
Hi all,
the Marshall/Sanow work is an interesting study, but nothing to place supreme faith in IMO. Or even uncertain faith!

I look at my hunting twigs as guide to what I should carry. No I am not going to run out and get one of those MOA Maxiums chambered in .375H&H! :D

But in as far as the power of the rifle compared to the game we are taking. If our rifles are generating say 3 to 4 times as much power as our defensive sidearms, why are we expecting these far lower powered firearms to produce the *one shot stop* where the BG falls dead as if the BG was touched by the vengeful finger of God?

With that stated, I prefer to carry a defensive caliber that will generate a *compfortable* level of energy. Gimme my 10mm, 9x23W or .357 Sig pistols. Now I am not allergic to .40S&W, .45acp or 9mm (I own and carry those calibers frequently), but if I had a choice as to what caliber to take to stop a BG it would definitely the BFG9000 from Doom!

When the fecal matter hits the whirling metallic air current machine, we don't want smaller/less powerful guns! :D

Derek
 
C

Chad Young

New member
Just to second an earlier post, my comments are not intended as in insult to you but instead to Marshall's so-called "Data."

Good topic idea, though....
 
P

Payette Jack

New member
Get multiple hits in the vitals and caliber/bullet design/voodoo spells etc. will be much less a critical factor.

Miss with a Howitzer and you may as well have missed with a .22. Same end result.
 
K

krept

New member
I was also surprised (as posted in Glocktalk) at how the SIG round did not perform as well as its magnum counterpart. Also how some .45s outpenetrated the 10mms. While the .40s and .45s did well as expected, I have to give it up to the 9mm +P+ in this study and the 10mm (Cor-Bon 150gr JHP) that penetrated to 11.1" and expanded to .82!

BTW, the penetration might take into account cover and clothing as well as angular shots.

As far at the heart of the article, the OSS, I think the data just goes to show you that there are MANY factors to consider. A bullet that penetrates deeper and expands better gets lower stops... interesting.
 
D

denfoote

New member
I used to subscribe to the M&S BS. Then I relized that that it was the gun rags that were pushing their tripe. These same gun rags want us to believe that that unmentioned, formerly American gun manufacturer is now OK, just because they **** canned their CEO. I now subscribe to the "bigger holes" theory. I carry a .45ACP.;)
 
R

RazorsEdge

New member
Mr. Onslaught,

I agree COMPLETELY. That is the CRUCIAL problem with Evans and Sanow.

It's like me asking single women at bars for their phone numbers. Let's say I always keep asking, even if they say no the first time.

So, out of asking 500 women, 3 give me their numbers the first time.

So a friend asks me, "In the times you only asked women for their numbers just once, how successful were you?"

I can honestly answer,"100 %." Because 3 out of 3 is 100%.
But the excluded data gives a whole different picture!
 
E

Elmo

New member
I dunno. I say if you're only getting 3 out of 500 you need to change your approach -- or your aftershave. :) :)
 
A

ArmySon

Staff Alumnus
Paragraph 2, sentence 1:
"Multiple hits have to be discarded."
Click to expand...

Onslaught,
I gave an outline on why M&S's findings were flawed (specifically the multiple hits factor) a few weeks ago to only be flamed for providing FACTS. No comment on the rest of this thread. I like to remain calm... ;)

1,2,3
deep breath
1,2,3
deep breath
 
J

Josh

New member
People are going to believe what they want about the 9,45,40 etc. My thinking is as Clint Smith would say the only reason for a handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle. The handgun is a very limited fight stopper regardless what most people think. The only reason I carry a handgun is because I cannot hide a shotgun or rifle. As far as Marshall/Sanow, the garbage that they write about (one shot stops) sells magazines.
 
D

Dr45ACP

Moderator
Does anybody know who funds the so-called research done by Marshall and Sanow?

I dont know, but I betcha that there is a conflict of interest.

And I bet they will never say who funds them.
 
G

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
M&S specifically and intentionally leave out a lot of important data that needs to be present in order to be valid.
I guess they expect you to go on Faith. If thats the case, my faith is in .45 until I see a miracle.
 
G

Gremlin

New member
Wasn't it Will Rogers who said,

"There's three kinds of lies. There's 'lies'. There's 'damn lies'. And then there's 'statistics'."

Irrespective of the quoted evidence above, NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING beats a well placed shot with any ammo. Gimme a dialed in Ruger Mk II in 22 long if I've got the time to put it between an assailant's eyes. If I don't have all day to stand there and take a proper stance and get the little laser red dot in the spot where it's supposed to be and then take a breath and then gently squeeze the trigger... well then gimme a round that makes the biggest hole going in. I'll take my chances from there.

Make mine a .45.

Because they don't make a .46.
 
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