The mysteries of 22lr ballistics--what do you think?

[taylorce1]

My take on it is the standard velocity ammunition is more predictable, due to the more consistent velocites shot after shot, once you're able to make wind calls better. So it should provide more consistent hits at longer ranges. High velocity ammunition is only supersonic at most to 100 yards anyway.

I found supersonic doing better than subsonic, given the ammo I can afford.

What's your tolerance for what you're willing to pay? Standard HV stuff is about $40 a brick, you can buy Federal GMM for $60 and Wolf Match, Eley Club or Target for $80. Then there is Norma that stagpanther endorses, and the TAC-22 is the same price as HV ammunition and their match is around $70 per brick. I had three bricks delivered for $160 to my door two of the TAC-22 and one of the Match. I just don't think good ammunition is as out of reach as you state.

 

[stagpanther]

I just got a thousand rounds of Tac 22 delivered yesterday for $100 (OK, before shipping charges) it's almost as good as the top-shelf stuff in my CZ 457. Not the 2 cents a round of yesteryear, but for today an excellent performance value.

 

[taylorce1]

If you're willing to buy 5K rounds you can get TAC-22 for $40 a brick shipped.

 

[stagpanther]

If you're willing to buy 5K rounds you can get TAC-22 for $40 a brick shipped.

I usually "warm up" with Tac 22 before switching to RWS 50 or 100. That stuff is expensive but is golden in my rifles.

 

[tangolima]

Interesting. I will give tac 22 a try. Price is quite reasonable. Thanks.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Picher]

My 10-22 shot this pretty nice bunch of groups: https://www.facebook.com/reel/917313929615894

 

[stagpanther]

Are you late with your rent and your landlord going to litigate? (no idea what that has to do with 22lr ammo LOL)

 

[stagpanther]

This thread got me interested in resurrecting this project and do a comprehensive comparison of the best subsonics I have to the best supersonics I have. While so far all my shooting has born out that subsonics are more accurate over-all; I never felt my Lilja build was really working optimally so decided to give it another try.

The barrel comes from Lilja with a set of shims and specific instructions on how to headspace it--which I followed to the letter. It worked, but it also frequently resulted in spent cases being left in the chamber. Bringing a ramrod out to the range to remove the case gets old really fast.

Comparing Lilja’s barrel to the stock CZ I noticed that the breach face of CZ’s has shallow notches to facilitate the extractors in grabbing the case rim, these notches are somewhat below the surface of the breach face—Lilja’s barrel instead has the bore wall go all the way up to the level of the breach face (I assume for better case support). In my opinion—that is the chief reason the CZ bolt sometimes has trouble extracting spent cases especially when using supersonic cartridges.

So I decided to file a couple of shallow notches where the extractors contact the barrel’s breach face to see if that gets rid of the extraction problem. It does. In the process I also was able to ditch the shimming headspacing headache. The tricky part is that the firing pin hits the case rim right at the same spot where an extractor groove is, so if there isn’t enough support there (which I found out by a test with the shims still on) higher-pressure loads will tend to bulge or blow out the case head in that area. Once I removed the shims the rifle cycled, fired and extracted with no problems—both low-pressure subsonics and high-pressure (1,400 fps or better) supersonics. Full disclosure—this was a rather rash “throw caution to the wind” experiment and I may have very well ruined the barrel in the process. I’ll see. I was getting what I would call “OK” results, at or slightly under MOA before I did the mod, but my CZ jaguar could easily best the best the Lilja could do. I also replaced the magazine well and magazine with CZ’s for 17 HMR/22WMR to accommodate the much longer cutting edge solid projectiles—works like a charm.

I’ve got a lot of time and money vested in the project—so I am very motivated to see the supersonic solids beat the subsonics—I just haven’t been able to do it so far. I've seen no evidence so far of gas escaping due to a bad seal.

 

[Rimfire5]

The data I have supports Stagpanther.

I can only report the experience that I and 3 other range buddies who shot a total of 18 different .22LR target grade rifles using 57 different ammos over about 5 years. I hope this long post provides data that most people don’t have the opportunity or the time to gather.

We shot 5 round groups at 50 and 100 yards and the total groups scored was well over 10,200 groups.
We recorded everything so the amount of data we gathered is daunting.
The shooting sessions were all from benches using scopes, so barrel length didn’t aid in sighting.
Shooting sessions extended over multiple years, outdoors, under temperature conditions from 45 to 90+ degrees, and with wind conditions that varied but rarely exceeded 10-15 mph.
While there were some variations in shooter ability, especially in ‘reading the wind’ shooting at 100 yards, the large samples tended to balance that out.
Barrel lengths ranged from 18 to 26 inches.
Bullet velocity ratings ranged from 1,050 fps to 1,085 fps for match & target ammos and from 1,200 to 1,255 for high velocity ammos.

Our results show that the accuracy was more dependent on the rifle and quality of the ammo rather than on barrel length.
Unfortunately, not all barrel bores are the same, regardless of length, and the higher quality barrels tended to produce better performance.
At 100 yards, the quality of the ammo was the biggest factor.

Results:
2 Cooper rifles (24-in), a Winchester 52C (26-in), and 7 Kidd semi-autos (20-in) had the best performance at 50 yards.
2 Cooper rifles (24-in), a Winchester 52C (26-in) and 3 of the Kidd semi-autos (20-in) had the best performance at 100 yards.

At 100 yards, the rifles shooting the best overall averages tended to shoot more of the highest quality ammos.
Laupa X-act, Midas Plus, or Center-X, and Eley Tenex or Match, and RWS R-50 or R-100 generally had the smallest group averages at both 50 and 100 yards in most rifles.
Those 7 ammos generally had the best results at 100 yards regardless of rifle, or barrel length.
(Eley Team and Edge, SK Rifle Match, Wolf Match Target averaged just over 1.0 in at 100 yards and were not used as much, once it was found that the higher quality ammos performed so much better.)

At 50 yards, the best shooting rifles, in order, were:
2 different Cooper 57M rifles with 24-in barrels
Winchester 52C with a 26-in barrel
7 different Kidd semi-autos with 20-inch barrels
Sako Quad with a 22 in barrel
Kimber SVT with a 18-in barrel
CZ 455 with a 22-in barrel
3 Ruger 10-22s (modified) with 20-inch barrels
Ruger American
Remington 541X
The best group averages were achieved with high quality, match ammos.

At 50 yards:
The top 9 rifles shot under 0.5-in averages with all of the ammos.
7 of those 9 averages were between 0.404 to 0.444.
The top 9 rifles averaged under 0.4 inches with high quality match ammos.
5 other rifles shot under 0.6-in averages for all of the ammos.
1 of the 5 averaged 0.500-in.
2 rifles shot just over 0.6-in averages for all of the ammos.
Averages were 0.609 and 0.610.
The last two rifles averaged under 0.8 inches for all of the ammos.

At 100 yards only the top 13 rifles were shot using the moderate to high grade match ammos.
(Even with the most accurate rifles, tests of high velocity ammos showed that they couldn’t break 1.2-in
averages at 100 yards. Several could not even break 1-In at 50 yards.)

At 100 yards, the top 6 rifles averaged under 0.9-in for all ammos shot:
Ammo quality and wind conditions tended to be a major factor in getting consistent results.
0.724 Kidd with 20 in barrel
0.808 Kidd with 20 in barrel
0.836 Cooper 57M with 24-in barrel
0.859 Winchester 52 C with 26-in barrel
0.865 Cooper 57M with 24-in barrel
0.891 Kidd with 20-in barrel

At 100 yards, the best ammos in the top 6 rifles averaged:
0.649 Kidd with 20-in barrel (Lapua Midas Plus)
0.658 Cooper 57M with 24-in barrel (Lapua X-Act
0.732 Cooper 57M with 24-in barrel (Eley TENEX)
0.747 Kidd with 20-in barrel (Lapua X-Act)
0.789 Kidd with 20-in barrel (Lapua Midas Plus)
0.823 Winchester 52C with 26-in barrel (Lapua Midas Plus)

 

[stagpanther]

I just got back from my first test which had some rather surprising results for me.

I started with Cutting edge's lowest charge for their 42 gr CURX bullet which is 2.1 grs. when using VV N350. Since the top charge is only a few tenths of a grain more and produced a velocity over 1400 fps for them--I just assumed the load would be supersonic. It isn't, even though the first shot sailed over two feet above where a Norma Tac 22 landed. I got an average vel right around 1150 fps--very similar to the better subsonics. Having said that, the SD and ED figures were horrendous.

Conditions were terribly, gusty crosswinds exceeding 20 mph, so I didn't see any point in going long and just wanted to record some labradar data--I set up at what turned out to be 52 yds. I wouldn't expect any kind of rimfire to group well in these kind of conditions.

I shot ten shots and was really surprised by the group (in previous outings I didn't get results like this even in calm conditions)--excluding the shot out to the right which I called as it broke because I pulled it--the remaining 9 shots grouped just a bit over MOA as far as I can tell. I didn't bother grouping any conventional lead ammo--I like to keep the two separate in bores. It will be interesting to see what happens when I push the same combo well past transonic/supersonic.

 

[stagpanther]

Interesting results rimfire 5--thanks for posting.

 

[stagpanther]

Here's a recent experiment on barrel length done by MDT--you might be surprised.

 

[natman]

Yes--that is often mentioned as the "perceived" advantage of longer barrels. All of my shooting was done with a top-tier high power scope on all barrel lengths.

There's nothing "perceived" about the advantages of a longer sight radius when using iron sights. It's a mathematical reality.

Obviously that advantage is moot if you're using a scope.

Shorter barrels are stiffer, all else being equal.

 

[stagpanther]

I keep getting whacked over the head about the sight radius thing--I never mentioned that or denied it, from the beginning I kept it to within context of bullet velocity/performance.

 

[natman]

I keep getting whacked over the head about the sight radius thing--I never mentioned that or denied it, from the beginning I kept it to within context of bullet velocity/performance.

When you say that a longer sight radius is a "perceived" advantage of longer barrels, it come across as if you think the advantage is imaginary. It's not.

 

[stagpanther]

When you say that a longer sight radius is a "perceived" advantage of longer barrels, it come across as if you think the advantage is imaginary. It's not.

¡Ay, caramba!

I never said that.

I do a fair amount of shot-gunning with long barrels and bead sights--I assure you I know better and FULLY AGREE that a longer sight radius for fixed sights is advantageaous. Happy now?

 

[darkgael]

I am surprised that, in that wonderfully exhaustive study of rifles and ammo, there is no mention of either Anschutz or Walther.
Why is that?

 

[stagpanther]

Why is that?

Beats me--maybe they aren't "22lr 1 percenters?"

 

[Rimfire5]

Simple, darkgael.

You have to own one to shoot one.

 

[stagpanther]

I may look into a Walther one of these days if my financial situation improves beyond peanut butter sandwiches and ramen noodles.

Meanwhile--the CZ above gave up the ghost on it's plastic mag well--it's not a question of if but when IMO, same thing happened with my CZ jaguar. Why any rifle manufacturer would make such a crucial component out of plastic is a mystery to me. Fortunately, DPI products makes excellent all-metal replacement wells and blocks. From now on I will simply automatically buy the metal DPI components upon purchase of any 457/455.