The Most Successful Handgun Design Ever
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Brian Williams
New member
I have to interject that Sam Colt did a pretty good job of designing the Single action. It has been thru the old folding trigger Walker of the early 1800's, the various Army and Navy iterations 1851, 1862, (many of which are still being copied today), the various remingtion, et al, copies that were produced way back when, The 1873 SAA and all of its cowboy changes, thru army adoption until the 1911 finished its birthing process, it was stagnent for a while until some designers found that the venerable design was potentially stronger than the Smith "N" and the 1911. They have built some revolvers that fire some awesome rounds. Example are Freedom Arms and the 454, and even Rugers modifications of the action.... now with the growth of the SASS and Cowboy action shooting events. how many different importers are bringing new SAA's into the country, even Colt is still making them.....
Chris Pinkleton
New member
If we limit ourselves to the military, and define "sucess" in sheer volume, I think the Hi-Power wins hands down. During the cold war just about every free nation in the world besides us used it. Yes, many Smith(and Colt) revolvers were used by the allies for WWII, but this was due to shortages of semi-autos. Even in the worldwide civilian market, I'd bet the HP has quite an edge in numbers over the 1911, if clones are taken into account. The 1911 has unquestionably been the most sucessful design inside the US, but not nearly as dominant abroad.
All this said, the 1911 is more "sucessful" for my shooting purposes than the HP.
All this said, the 1911 is more "sucessful" for my shooting purposes than the HP.
The S&W design has most certainly been copied and is proliferate throughout the shooting world. However, The 1911 design is by far the most successful. If you want to compare numbers the revolver may win by a little but let's look at numbers and look at current popularity. K frame has been around since the late 1800's, Browning's design has been around since early 1900's both have about a bajillion copies more or less. Which is still the choice of professionals when they need a firearm to carry into harms way? the 1911 design. Which is most popular in competition? the 1911 design. Which is in production by over a dozen companies and still counting? the 1911 design.
They are both true examples of genius and "must haves" for any multiple gun owner.
Glock may be a neat trick but it doesn't and hasn't done anything new nor has it made any earth shaking improvements in design.
They are both true examples of genius and "must haves" for any multiple gun owner.
Glock may be a neat trick but it doesn't and hasn't done anything new nor has it made any earth shaking improvements in design.
man, I did not expect this volume. great
My basic reasoning is that the S&W K & N frames have been built with really, really small changes for well over a 100 years. If you had a gunsmith from 1896 sit down with a straight out of the box S&W K,L,or N frame, he could get to work immediately.
But it it were just long life, I'd probably bow to any of the models (except GLOCK, nothing new there except some good marketing and luck) that have been mentioned. But the S&Ws are still out there at the very leading edge of guns today. When you are looking for a real honker, big bad handgun, the M-29 is the one talked about. You want all around performance and great stopping power (what ever that is), it's the M-19 or the M-28. You want a real nail driver 22 target revolver? Get a K-22 Combat Masterpiece.
Nope, when it comes to long life, exceptional versatility, high power, accuracy, reliability, function and (although this is subjective) sheer beauty, it's got to be the S&W revolver.
My basic reasoning is that the S&W K & N frames have been built with really, really small changes for well over a 100 years. If you had a gunsmith from 1896 sit down with a straight out of the box S&W K,L,or N frame, he could get to work immediately.
But it it were just long life, I'd probably bow to any of the models (except GLOCK, nothing new there except some good marketing and luck) that have been mentioned. But the S&Ws are still out there at the very leading edge of guns today. When you are looking for a real honker, big bad handgun, the M-29 is the one talked about. You want all around performance and great stopping power (what ever that is), it's the M-19 or the M-28. You want a real nail driver 22 target revolver? Get a K-22 Combat Masterpiece.
Nope, when it comes to long life, exceptional versatility, high power, accuracy, reliability, function and (although this is subjective) sheer beauty, it's got to be the S&W revolver.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Erik,
Actually, the 1911 and its clones and copies can't even hold a remote candle to the 50 to 75 MILLION S&W-type revolvers that have been made over the last 100 years.
Actually, the 1911 and its clones and copies can't even hold a remote candle to the 50 to 75 MILLION S&W-type revolvers that have been made over the last 100 years.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Gonzo,
The S&W-style revolver, as I have CONSISTENTLY been saying, if anyone would bother to read my posts, wins by more than just a LITTLE.
The 1911 and its clones can't even come remotely close to matching the number of S&W-style revolvers that have been produced. Quite frankly, no firearm can. The Smith & Wesson revolver design is the most copied, most produced handgun design in history.
Your counter argument about "professionals" is also a non-producer, in reality. No, the S&W revolver doesn't enjoy the popularity that it once did, but S&W & S&W-type revolver sales remain extremely strong.
But then again, the 1911 doesn't enjoy the popularity that it once did, either. There's a dirty little secrete of the Wonder9 invasion of the 1980s. It didn't just drop revolver sales to the basement, it also dropped sales of the 1911 way far off of what they were.
The US Military switched away from it nearly 2 decades ago. No major police force carries it -- some speciality units do -- the the vast majority of all police now carry guns that had their origin in Europe.
Who are these "professionals" that you claim? A few dozen gun writers? Sorry, not a winner, either. If they truly had the clout you claimed, no one in the US would be carrying anything BUT a 1911. And, more importantly, a few "professionals" using 1911s now constitutes a personal preference, a snapshot in time, as it were.
A few ill-defined "professionals" don't really set the entire standard. For instance, would you consider Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, or Ed McGivern professionals? Those men all had access to 1911s, but all used/were most associated with Smith & Wesson revovlers.
If I were to pick a single, narrow criteria, as many in this discussion have, as the sole arbiter of "success," I could make a convincing case that the Yugo was the most successful car ever designed, or that Adolf Hitler was the most successful national leader ever to walk the earth. But what about all of those nasty elements, you might ask? Well, they don't support my case for "success," so they should arbitrarily be rejected as non-players.
Sorry, that's a game of 3-card Monty that no one here should be willing to buy.
As I've noted, the full some of a handgun's impact should be measured -- acceptance, production, adoption, impact, and emulation.
If you take those criteria and judge them as a whole, there are very few, if any, that can come close to matching the S&W revolver design.
Let's face it, there's no doubt that I'm a big fan of the S&W revolver. But even if I weren't, I'd still look at the situation objectively, look at the criteria that I've laid out above, and arrive at the same conclusion.
The numbers simply don't lie. The estimated 50 to 75 MILLION S&W and S&W-type revolvers that have been produced over the last 100 years, their world-wide distribution (at one time makers in Spain were making more S&W-type revolvers than S&W was), guarantee it it's place as the most successful handgun design ever.
The S&W-style revolver, as I have CONSISTENTLY been saying, if anyone would bother to read my posts, wins by more than just a LITTLE.
The 1911 and its clones can't even come remotely close to matching the number of S&W-style revolvers that have been produced. Quite frankly, no firearm can. The Smith & Wesson revolver design is the most copied, most produced handgun design in history.
Your counter argument about "professionals" is also a non-producer, in reality. No, the S&W revolver doesn't enjoy the popularity that it once did, but S&W & S&W-type revolver sales remain extremely strong.
But then again, the 1911 doesn't enjoy the popularity that it once did, either. There's a dirty little secrete of the Wonder9 invasion of the 1980s. It didn't just drop revolver sales to the basement, it also dropped sales of the 1911 way far off of what they were.
The US Military switched away from it nearly 2 decades ago. No major police force carries it -- some speciality units do -- the the vast majority of all police now carry guns that had their origin in Europe.
Who are these "professionals" that you claim? A few dozen gun writers? Sorry, not a winner, either. If they truly had the clout you claimed, no one in the US would be carrying anything BUT a 1911. And, more importantly, a few "professionals" using 1911s now constitutes a personal preference, a snapshot in time, as it were.
A few ill-defined "professionals" don't really set the entire standard. For instance, would you consider Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, or Ed McGivern professionals? Those men all had access to 1911s, but all used/were most associated with Smith & Wesson revovlers.
If I were to pick a single, narrow criteria, as many in this discussion have, as the sole arbiter of "success," I could make a convincing case that the Yugo was the most successful car ever designed, or that Adolf Hitler was the most successful national leader ever to walk the earth. But what about all of those nasty elements, you might ask? Well, they don't support my case for "success," so they should arbitrarily be rejected as non-players.
Sorry, that's a game of 3-card Monty that no one here should be willing to buy.
As I've noted, the full some of a handgun's impact should be measured -- acceptance, production, adoption, impact, and emulation.
If you take those criteria and judge them as a whole, there are very few, if any, that can come close to matching the S&W revolver design.
Let's face it, there's no doubt that I'm a big fan of the S&W revolver. But even if I weren't, I'd still look at the situation objectively, look at the criteria that I've laid out above, and arrive at the same conclusion.
The numbers simply don't lie. The estimated 50 to 75 MILLION S&W and S&W-type revolvers that have been produced over the last 100 years, their world-wide distribution (at one time makers in Spain were making more S&W-type revolvers than S&W was), guarantee it it's place as the most successful handgun design ever.
Colt SA revolvers were dominant for much of the 19th century, especially through the cap-n-ball era. The 1873 Peacemaker was really just an evolution of the earlier cap-n-ball revolvers. Not much more than a cartridge conversion with a top strap put on to it.
The Colt SA design became obsolete when S&W came out with their break open cartridge revolvers IMHO. Colt SA revolvers had their day, but were already "old fashioned" by the the late 1880's to early 1890's.
The S&W K-frame revolver certainly made its mark for much of the twentieth century, but its time had already passed by 1987.
The 1911A1 was only popular with the US military and a fraternity of elite shooters in the US. The 1911 was overshadowed by the Browning P-35, thus the rest of the world uses 9mm parabellum and not .45acp.
The Browning P-35 still has alot of popularity but Glock has kicked it down to #2 spot.
Right now it is Glock that is the number 1 most popular gun. If you do not believe me, just go to the range and take a look around. All the young men are using Glocks.
The Colt SA design became obsolete when S&W came out with their break open cartridge revolvers IMHO. Colt SA revolvers had their day, but were already "old fashioned" by the the late 1880's to early 1890's.
The S&W K-frame revolver certainly made its mark for much of the twentieth century, but its time had already passed by 1987.
The 1911A1 was only popular with the US military and a fraternity of elite shooters in the US. The 1911 was overshadowed by the Browning P-35, thus the rest of the world uses 9mm parabellum and not .45acp.
The Browning P-35 still has alot of popularity but Glock has kicked it down to #2 spot.
Right now it is Glock that is the number 1 most popular gun. If you do not believe me, just go to the range and take a look around. All the young men are using Glocks.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"light on the way to Damascus..."
Hum... I thought that was the flares illuminating the Iraqi armor column just before the Warthogs hit it...
Hum... I thought that was the flares illuminating the Iraqi armor column just before the Warthogs hit it...
don't shoot it's me
New member
8mm Japanese nambu
Daryl Licht
New member
The arguments for the DA Smiths and the 1911's are good ones and I can't dispute either. One post above did mention that it depends on how you define "success". Ruger's .22 semi auto and their single action revolvers have certainly built one of the largest firearms makers in the world, in a relatively short time.
Mike's pretty convincing. Can't think of any arguments he's not already stomped into oblivion.
I'll stir the pot a little though.
I think there's a good argument to be made for the Browning Hi-Power as the #1 auto. Especially when you consider the considerable international usage... After all, there's more to the shooting world than just the U.S.
I'll stir the pot a little though.
I think there's a good argument to be made for the Browning Hi-Power as the #1 auto. Especially when you consider the considerable international usage... After all, there's more to the shooting world than just the U.S.
Arcadian62
New member
Mike, if it's the "column" I'm thinking about, I guess there were no Geneva Convention violations that day either You do what ya gotta do I guess!
You do what ya gotta do I guess!
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Sixgun_Symphony
Moderator
I am curious about the Webley,
The British Empire was big, like 1/4 of the Earth's surface if I recall correctly. The Brits used the Webley revolvers for a long time and I think it might need to be added on to the list of contenders here.
The British Empire was big, like 1/4 of the Earth's surface if I recall correctly. The Brits used the Webley revolvers for a long time and I think it might need to be added on to the list of contenders here.
Hi Mike,
Actually, I have not painted myself into a corner by opining that the 1911A1 is the most successful handgun design ever. It has wide application in other arenas besides military. While designed as a premier battle weapon, it has been adopted by target shooters where it has done exceedingly well. It has proven itself so thoroughly in the self-defense market that there is no sense in rehashing its success. Finally, the 1911A1 has been used with great success in law enforcement applications. Ironically its legacy as a battle weapon may have hampered its even wider applicability in civilian law enforcement. I have heard of agencies refusing to issue the 1911A1 because its appearance is too military looking. However, many tactical teams in military and law enforcement rely on the proven success of the 1911A1. Mike, I honestly know of no such unit using revolvers.
I am trying not to support my opinion by reducing the stature of your choice. The "K" Frame is a damn good revolver and can stand on its own merits. It is not my intent to prove the worth of the 1911A1 by diminishing your choice. It is my opinion that the advent of the 1911A1 revolutionized handguns, not just in military application but in all of the shooting world. But for the 1911A1, revolvers might still be the issued sidearm in military and in law enforcement. In fact, the 1911A1 might even be considered the best ever vis-a-vis the "K" Frame, because in fact such other stellar guns exist. It has bested the field of damn good guns; excellent competition makes for an excellent champion. I am positive that the Diamondbacks are much more happy besting the Yankees in the World Series than they would have been by beating the hapless Anaheim Angels. If you want to be the best you gotta beat the best.
Take care, Mike,
E
Actually, I have not painted myself into a corner by opining that the 1911A1 is the most successful handgun design ever. It has wide application in other arenas besides military. While designed as a premier battle weapon, it has been adopted by target shooters where it has done exceedingly well. It has proven itself so thoroughly in the self-defense market that there is no sense in rehashing its success. Finally, the 1911A1 has been used with great success in law enforcement applications. Ironically its legacy as a battle weapon may have hampered its even wider applicability in civilian law enforcement. I have heard of agencies refusing to issue the 1911A1 because its appearance is too military looking. However, many tactical teams in military and law enforcement rely on the proven success of the 1911A1. Mike, I honestly know of no such unit using revolvers.
I am trying not to support my opinion by reducing the stature of your choice. The "K" Frame is a damn good revolver and can stand on its own merits. It is not my intent to prove the worth of the 1911A1 by diminishing your choice. It is my opinion that the advent of the 1911A1 revolutionized handguns, not just in military application but in all of the shooting world. But for the 1911A1, revolvers might still be the issued sidearm in military and in law enforcement. In fact, the 1911A1 might even be considered the best ever vis-a-vis the "K" Frame, because in fact such other stellar guns exist. It has bested the field of damn good guns; excellent competition makes for an excellent champion. I am positive that the Diamondbacks are much more happy besting the Yankees in the World Series than they would have been by beating the hapless Anaheim Angels. If you want to be the best you gotta beat the best.
Take care, Mike,
E