Mike Irwin
Staff
How can a company that went out of business in March 2000 have fitted products with locks?
The Million-dollar question about the Smith & Wesson lock
- Thread starter LockedBreech
- Start date
Does any gun company (or any company, for that matter) ever produce a product that folks actually like and use? It seems I hear nothing but complaints about defective this and that. S&W has never produced a workable gun since sometime in 1889. Ruger has never made a properly functioning gun, ever. Taurus makes nothing but junk. Likewise Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Remington, Browning, Walther, etc., etc.
I know I am not as "plugged in" to the gun business as I once was, but I simply do NOT believe that large and successful companies have made thousands or tens of thousands or millions of guns that don't work or blow up or fall apart.
I really wonder what motivates the folks who spread that kind of nonsense. Are they excessively finicky ("this gun has a spot of dust, it is defective") or are they paid by someone like Bloomberg to create public distrust and put gun companies out of business?
Jim
I know I am not as "plugged in" to the gun business as I once was, but I simply do NOT believe that large and successful companies have made thousands or tens of thousands or millions of guns that don't work or blow up or fall apart.
I really wonder what motivates the folks who spread that kind of nonsense. Are they excessively finicky ("this gun has a spot of dust, it is defective") or are they paid by someone like Bloomberg to create public distrust and put gun companies out of business?
Jim
LockedBreech
New member
I don't think it's limited to guns, James. Read any forum on any topic. People decide what they like and the rest is garbage. Ford fans will say Chevy is a death trap, BMW fans will say there's no American car worth driving even though the 2014 Impala and Fusion are incredibly nice designs, etc etc so on and so forth.
Several years ago, when I shot with a friend in Toledo, Ohio. A guy came in the shop with a big S&W revolver that locked up with live ammo in the cylinders. He was asking the shop for help -- the story was that he fired a shot and the gun locked-up. On that revolver, the S&W lock failed and locked-up the revolver (from what I could see and hear while standing beside the revolver owner and the shop clerk).
I have not seen any S&W lock failure since that one.
The failure maybe rare but it did happen - does it still happen? hmmm.
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Given a choice, I would rather not have a lock on a S&W revolver that I would use for defense.
I have not seen any S&W lock failure since that one.
The failure maybe rare but it did happen - does it still happen? hmmm.
========
Given a choice, I would rather not have a lock on a S&W revolver that I would use for defense.
Did you have the opportunity to remove the sideplate and examine the gun? Had you done so, could you have been able to determine if the lock was at fault? Could it have been the extractor rod backing out, or some other failure?
Please understand, I am not doubting your word, but I have been involved in enough failure analyses to know that determining the cause of failure is often a lot more complex than folks might think. If the S&W lock is "in the news", then any problem with an S&W is going to be blamed on the lock, even if (in one case I looked into) the gun doesn't have one.
Jim
Please understand, I am not doubting your word, but I have been involved in enough failure analyses to know that determining the cause of failure is often a lot more complex than folks might think. If the S&W lock is "in the news", then any problem with an S&W is going to be blamed on the lock, even if (in one case I looked into) the gun doesn't have one.
Jim
Massad Ayoob...
Massad Ayoob(a TFL member) put out a article several years back about S&W safety locks.
He wrote about a student/sworn LE colleague he knew who packed a snub model 29 .44magnum as a homicide cop.
The police detective purchased a NIB Smith & Wesson 329 Sc frame .44 to start using on duty. He took the S&W .44magnum to the range & it misfired a few times.
He considered the security lock system to be a part of problem. The cop went back to carrying his trusted S&W snub N frame .44 revolver.
Ayoob stated he would not carry a newer S&W magnum revolver with the security system for defense or LE duty.
Take it or leave it, but that is what it is.
CF
Massad Ayoob(a TFL member) put out a article several years back about S&W safety locks.
He wrote about a student/sworn LE colleague he knew who packed a snub model 29 .44magnum as a homicide cop.
The police detective purchased a NIB Smith & Wesson 329 Sc frame .44 to start using on duty. He took the S&W .44magnum to the range & it misfired a few times.
He considered the security lock system to be a part of problem. The cop went back to carrying his trusted S&W snub N frame .44 revolver.
Ayoob stated he would not carry a newer S&W magnum revolver with the security system for defense or LE duty.
Take it or leave it, but that is what it is.
CF
I had it engage once when firing some very hot rounds. It has not happened since. I always keep the key in my range bag. It doesn't matter much to me since my "LOCK" guns are range guns.
The primary problem I have with new S&W revolvers is I keep breaking firing pins. I always use Snap Caps, but I still lose pins. I have since moved on to Ruger; we'll see if those hold up better over time.
The primary problem I have with new S&W revolvers is I keep breaking firing pins. I always use Snap Caps, but I still lose pins. I have since moved on to Ruger; we'll see if those hold up better over time.
Sheikyourbootie
New member
My 340 PD locked up from the recoil. Slid off the grip, removed the side plate, mainspring and performed a lockectomy right there on the spot. Took the lock out of my 627 as well, even though it's a heavy gun and isn't as likely to have the same thing happen...the lock will continue to reside in the safe.
buck460XVR
New member
The lock will not make the firearm "misfire a few times". This is what most complaints about the lock are all about.......something else. I've helped folks at the range who's lock they claim Mal-functioned only to find the ejector rod lose. Local gun smith tells me of all the Smiths brought in for a "broken lock" none have ever had a self engaged lock failure, all were something else. A problem arises with a new Smith, the owner posts about it online and the first replies are "does it have the lock?"....even when it's a finish/fit/cosmetic problem.
The lock is really a non-issue. S&W now make most of their snub SD revolvers with or without it. It is easily removed from those guns that have it if you don't want it.....or there are older Smiths and other brands readily available. I have heavy recoilin' Smiths with and without the lock from Airweight +p snubbies to X-Frames. After thousands of rounds thru them all, the failures are always the same.... loose ejector rod, strain screw backin' out, sticky case that didn't bounce back from the recoil shield, powder residue under the extractor or something else coming loose from the vibrations of heavy recoil. Have never engaged the lock on any of the firearms with it, was told by a S&W rep that not totally disengaging it is the main reason they self-engage. I don't even notice the hole when lookin' down the sights.Michael Bane (Outdoor Channel) and Massad Ayoob (LE specialist) have both reported S&W internal lock failures. See Michael Bane Blog 8/27/2007 and Ayoob, M. American Handgunner, 01-02, 2005].
Out of my 5 S&W ILS revolvers, when inspected (side-plate removed) 2 had the light blue coil spring partially worked off and loose: instead of sending the guns back to S&W I simply removed all 5 internal locks. These guns were bought for personal protection, and since I am already handicapped by having only 5 or 6 rounds on board, I need every round to work, my assailant may well have a hi-cap semi-auto or large claws and teeth.... ie bear.
I continue to buy S&Ws because I like their products (just bought another one), I have simply improved mine so that they will work as intended.
Out of my 5 S&W ILS revolvers, when inspected (side-plate removed) 2 had the light blue coil spring partially worked off and loose: instead of sending the guns back to S&W I simply removed all 5 internal locks. These guns were bought for personal protection, and since I am already handicapped by having only 5 or 6 rounds on board, I need every round to work, my assailant may well have a hi-cap semi-auto or large claws and teeth.... ie bear.
I continue to buy S&Ws because I like their products (just bought another one), I have simply improved mine so that they will work as intended.
Cosmodragoon
New member
How much should it cost to have one of these locks removed and the hole plugged with something that minimizes appearance, like a steel plug that sits flush?
I have but one S&W with a lock, my 627. It's one of my competition guns, and gets fired often and as fast as I can! The lock has not failed. It's a non-issue
The internet is full of haters, no matter what, they find things to hate on. I like to see the glass half full. I will continue to support all US gun makers, S&W included. They employ a lot of good folks up there in Springfield, lots of them just like me and you
Here's my 627, warts and all
The internet is full of haters, no matter what, they find things to hate on. I like to see the glass half full. I will continue to support all US gun makers, S&W included. They employ a lot of good folks up there in Springfield, lots of them just like me and you
Here's my 627, warts and all
I once was told that a 642 was misfiring because the transfer bar was broken. I pointed out that S&Ws had hammer blocks, not transfer bars, and was called a liar because the guy had "checked on the Internet". Then I told him that the 642 didn't have a hammer block, either, at which he called me several choice names and stalked away. I never learned (and didn't care) what was really causing his problem, but I did get a look at his ammo, and it was some of the worst looking reloads I have ever seen, so I can make a guess.
I once watched a revolver misfire several times, after which a range officer launched a diatribe against the S&W lock and how the shooter should get a Ruger. He ceased his ravings when the man told him that the misfiring revolver was a Ruger, a GP-100.
Can the S&W lock malfunction? I think the early ones might have and, as I said, S&W made a change in the design. But I am also certain that, like others have said, the lock gets blamed for problems that have other causes, and even on guns without it.
Jim
I once watched a revolver misfire several times, after which a range officer launched a diatribe against the S&W lock and how the shooter should get a Ruger. He ceased his ravings when the man told him that the misfiring revolver was a Ruger, a GP-100.
Can the S&W lock malfunction? I think the early ones might have and, as I said, S&W made a change in the design. But I am also certain that, like others have said, the lock gets blamed for problems that have other causes, and even on guns without it.
Jim
Cosmodragoon, I believe the plug is about $28.00. Here are the instructions on how it is done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM
You can go to the Smith and Wesson Forum and do a search on the "Plug", and get the contact for the seller of the plug.
You can go to the Smith and Wesson Forum and do a search on the "Plug", and get the contact for the seller of the plug.
The following is a list of things for which people have brought me guns and blamed the locks:
- Timing problems
- Hammer pushoff, due to obvious dremel abuse of the sear
- Cylinders that are locked shut because the ejector rod came unscrewed
- Cylinders that are locked because the ejector rod was bent from slapping it shut
- Inconsistent grouping
I've never, ever seen an example of the lock malfunctioning. Nor have I heard a credible firsthand account. I've been dealing with these guns since I was a teenager. I've seen overtorqued barrels, miscut chambers, missing firing pins, and in one case, the wrong cylinder on a gun.
Can it happen? Yep. Does it happen? Probably. However, the problem isn't nearly as widespread as people claim. If it was, I'd have seen it by now.
The simplest way to tell if an S&W ILS is working properly is to note the position of the flag, if it is up the gun is 'locked.' If the gun is not working and the flag is in the down position, the problem is very likely something else. Please note that on the traditional Bodyguard model the lock flag cannot be seen because it is screened by the humpback frame.
If the lock flag comes up (fully or partially) during normal operation the gun should be sent back to S&W for repairs.
The ILS is comprised of 6 moving parts: key, 3 internal metal parts and 2 internal springs. With the side-plate off, it is interesting to watch the the movement. Over-engineered Rube Goldberg. The reason you don't read criticism about Springfield Armory, Taurus, and Walther is they have better lock designs.
Also note that without the side-plate off, it can be difficult to diagnose a problem, and users are advised not to remove the side-plate, done incorrectly damage can result.
I have 6 S&W revolvers with the ILS. 5 have been completely removed. All the lock components look the same, but I have not put them to a micrometer. Since one of my S&Ws is a range/practice gun, the lock is still that one.
If the lock flag comes up (fully or partially) during normal operation the gun should be sent back to S&W for repairs.
The ILS is comprised of 6 moving parts: key, 3 internal metal parts and 2 internal springs. With the side-plate off, it is interesting to watch the the movement. Over-engineered Rube Goldberg. The reason you don't read criticism about Springfield Armory, Taurus, and Walther is they have better lock designs.
Also note that without the side-plate off, it can be difficult to diagnose a problem, and users are advised not to remove the side-plate, done incorrectly damage can result.
I have 6 S&W revolvers with the ILS. 5 have been completely removed. All the lock components look the same, but I have not put them to a micrometer. Since one of my S&Ws is a range/practice gun, the lock is still that one.
Cosmodragoon
New member
lamarw, thanks for the info. My few newer S&Ws are going to get plugged. This will help assuage my philosophical and psychological affect, though I will be also happy with the greater mechanical simplicity.
Choking on the hateraide....
Yes, I am a "hater".
I hate being shot at & concerned that my DA revolver may misfire or break because of the parts inside of it.
I also hate having to buy a firearm with a "safety feature" that I don't want or need.
A by-product of the post-9/11/2001 era rise in new gun owners & new CC laws was a major push to keep firearm makers or distributors from being sued/civil actions for the products are used.
These new legal actions & political steps negated the need for safety features/warning labels/security locks.
Lawyers & the estates-family members of some "victims" of gun violence wanted to blame the major gun companies(HK, Remington, Beretta, Colt, Ruger, etc) because they had the deep pockets & $$$.
Most pro-gun/2A + states changed or added the laws to keep gun companies out of the event(s).
Clyde
Yes, I am a "hater".
I hate being shot at & concerned that my DA revolver may misfire or break because of the parts inside of it.
I also hate having to buy a firearm with a "safety feature" that I don't want or need.
A by-product of the post-9/11/2001 era rise in new gun owners & new CC laws was a major push to keep firearm makers or distributors from being sued/civil actions for the products are used.
These new legal actions & political steps negated the need for safety features/warning labels/security locks.
Lawyers & the estates-family members of some "victims" of gun violence wanted to blame the major gun companies(HK, Remington, Beretta, Colt, Ruger, etc) because they had the deep pockets & $$$.
Most pro-gun/2A + states changed or added the laws to keep gun companies out of the event(s).
Clyde