I think it's as much about gun design as anything. Some guns tend to reposition in your hand upon muzzle flip energy. Grip design, grip angle, these tend to matter. My J frames tend to reposition while shooting light target 38 loads but my security six moves not at all in my hand with 357 loads. The 1911 45ACP and the Glocks, 40 or 9mm I own tend to do the same in hand no matter the caliber, no second grip action required.
The heaviest caliber you can handle...
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
I'll bite...
I'll say my S&W model 41 .22 LR is by far the most accurate and ease to control in rapid fire and have thousands of rounds through it since the late 80's...but we all know that the .22 LR is a bit on the weak side for protection purposes ! That being said I can control my Browning Hi Power 9mm pretty well when shooting rapid fire and feel confident with it for keeping on target ! I am now moving up to .45 acp and 10mm pistols but need a bit more practice and enjoy shooting them a lot ! I'd say for me right now the 9mm is my go to round for protection.....the 10mm was purchased for hunting and field carry and plan to shoot & practice with it often !
I'll say my S&W model 41 .22 LR is by far the most accurate and ease to control in rapid fire and have thousands of rounds through it since the late 80's...but we all know that the .22 LR is a bit on the weak side for protection purposes ! That being said I can control my Browning Hi Power 9mm pretty well when shooting rapid fire and feel confident with it for keeping on target ! I am now moving up to .45 acp and 10mm pistols but need a bit more practice and enjoy shooting them a lot ! I'd say for me right now the 9mm is my go to round for protection.....the 10mm was purchased for hunting and field carry and plan to shoot & practice with it often !
theres a good chunk of good hlp in the original post. but i think its been misconstrued and needs to be brought back in with historical data.
take anyone off the street, and give them a really powerful revovler, say a ruger super blackhawk in 44 magnum, 7 inch barrel. and elmer kieth type ammo.
they will shoooot BAD. give them proper practice and 44 specials, they will shoot better.
when mr roosevelt was police commisioner in new york he switched all the police to 32 caliber revolvers. easy to shoot guns, low recoil. easy to carry all day.
however necessity made everyone switch to 38 specials. still easy to shoot, slightly bigger gun. Just had to create the mantra of PRACTICE. thats why you suddenly see a big increase of police shooting leagues. suddenly shooting all the time was good, and being better then the next precinct was th eideal.
you can train to make barely adequate hits with heavy duty ammunition, or you can get lighter powered ammunition, and train to make really good hits.
take anyone off the street, and give them a really powerful revovler, say a ruger super blackhawk in 44 magnum, 7 inch barrel. and elmer kieth type ammo.
they will shoooot BAD. give them proper practice and 44 specials, they will shoot better.
when mr roosevelt was police commisioner in new york he switched all the police to 32 caliber revolvers. easy to shoot guns, low recoil. easy to carry all day.
however necessity made everyone switch to 38 specials. still easy to shoot, slightly bigger gun. Just had to create the mantra of PRACTICE. thats why you suddenly see a big increase of police shooting leagues. suddenly shooting all the time was good, and being better then the next precinct was th eideal.
you can train to make barely adequate hits with heavy duty ammunition, or you can get lighter powered ammunition, and train to make really good hits.
This makes as much sense to me as "a functional steering wheel is irrelevant so long as the car stays on the road" .......
It is a whole lot easier to make consistant hits quickly if you use a consistant, practiced grip...... or you can hope to get lucky.
Hope is not a plan.
I can handle a 357 magnum from my S&W 640 (stainless) J frame. I have tried it from the light scandium frame and that is pretty painful.
I have shot a glock 10mm with Double tap ammo and it felt about like the 357 magnum.
I own a BFR in 45-70 Govt. That if loaded hot is more than I can handle. I have to shoot it with down loaded ammo.
I have shot a glock 10mm with Double tap ammo and it felt about like the 357 magnum.
I own a BFR in 45-70 Govt. That if loaded hot is more than I can handle. I have to shoot it with down loaded ammo.
Not quite... the steering wheel must still function in controlling the car.
An example of my statement would be if I were to use the "cup and saucer" style hold. If I can hit the 10 ring at 15 yards with 5 out 5 shots in 3 seconds, is there a problem? Are my shots less effective because I wasn't holding the pistol properly?
That was my point.
Ease is a relative term and is based on a persons ability. I find it easy to bench press 200 lbs. My wife does not. (Although if she practiced, she could. And I would argue with her a lot less...)
Also, if I practice with what is commonly considered an incorrect pistol grip, yet still achieve the desired number of rounds on target they still count.
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Deaf Smith
New member
Depends on how heavy the gun is... depends on how ergonomic the gun is... and how ornery I am that day.
But normally I find the DPX .44 magnum loads about all I want from my 4 inch 629-1. And 230gr P+ about the most from my Combat Commander.
And I have no use for ultra light weight hand cannons in .357 or .44 or such.
Deaf
iMagUdspEllr
New member
I am so glad you made this thread JohnKSa. It would be nice to have a baseline for fast shooting. I suggest that we use the new FBI shooting test:
http://www.usacarry.com/new-fbi-qualification-course/
You are supposed to start with a concealed firearm for the qualification. There are time limits and a minimum amount of hits required to pass. You will also have to be able to shoot the gun one handed even with your weak hand. So that seems like a good way to see if you can really handle the caliber or not.
I guess this is kind of a high bar for some but... if you shoot for the moon... even if you miss you land in the stars.
Also, I suggest everyone go to handloads.com to use their recoil calculator so they can take into account the weight of the gun, bullet weight, bullet velocity, and weight of the powder charge.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
Seems like a good way to establish a baseline.
http://www.usacarry.com/new-fbi-qualification-course/
You are supposed to start with a concealed firearm for the qualification. There are time limits and a minimum amount of hits required to pass. You will also have to be able to shoot the gun one handed even with your weak hand. So that seems like a good way to see if you can really handle the caliber or not.
I guess this is kind of a high bar for some but... if you shoot for the moon... even if you miss you land in the stars.
Also, I suggest everyone go to handloads.com to use their recoil calculator so they can take into account the weight of the gun, bullet weight, bullet velocity, and weight of the powder charge.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
Seems like a good way to establish a baseline.
That is only true if time is not an issue. If you are time-constrained (as is true in self-defense and most practical handgun competitions) then your grip is extremely relevant to your performance.
You may be able to make hits shooting slowly, but the inability to maintain a proper shooting grip throughout a shot string will significantly impair your performance (combination of time and accuracy).
HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, IF your shooting skills are so advanced that you can outshoot everyone else using what is accepted to be a grip that provides a significant disadvantage over a proper two-handed grip, AND, IF you are satisfied with your performance, then there's no problem.
The fun thing about hypothetical scenarios is that the real-world can be excluded from the scenario. In practice it's harder to avoid reality.
Is there a difference between the heaviest caliber you can handle and the caliber you can shoot most accurately. Other posters have mentioned weight and ergonomics coming in to play. I prefer all steel handguns and only have two that aren't. Since I've only had a 1911 for two months I'm going to reserve judgement but I like their accuracy.
I have two 9mm's, a Stoeger Cougar and a CZ SP-01 Tactical. The CZ fits my hand better than the Stoeger, is heavier which I prefer, and by most accounts is a nicer pistol. The only problem is I am more accurate with the Stoeger.
I don't do well with .40 caliber period. I didn't think I would but I'm doing great with .45 ACP and it is of course larger in caliber than .40.
My belief for me is for self defense to shoot the handgun you are the most accurate with regardless of capacity or caliber. So next to my bed is a Stoeger Cougar 9mm and for carry either my Sig P232 or my Colt DS with shrouded ejector.
With more time my 1911 might become as accurate for me as my Stoeger, the Stoeger is also the least expensive handgun I own.
I have two 9mm's, a Stoeger Cougar and a CZ SP-01 Tactical. The CZ fits my hand better than the Stoeger, is heavier which I prefer, and by most accounts is a nicer pistol. The only problem is I am more accurate with the Stoeger.
I don't do well with .40 caliber period. I didn't think I would but I'm doing great with .45 ACP and it is of course larger in caliber than .40.
My belief for me is for self defense to shoot the handgun you are the most accurate with regardless of capacity or caliber. So next to my bed is a Stoeger Cougar 9mm and for carry either my Sig P232 or my Colt DS with shrouded ejector.
With more time my 1911 might become as accurate for me as my Stoeger, the Stoeger is also the least expensive handgun I own.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Well, to be perfectly blunt, I've not yet encountered a handgun cartridge that I can't handle.
However, for me at least, there are a couple of other factors in there, including, the heaviest I choose to shoot, and the heaviest that I enjoy shooting.
Generally, for me, the heaviest I choose to shoot is .41 Magnum, while the heaviest I enjoy shooting is .357 Magnum.
However, for me at least, there are a couple of other factors in there, including, the heaviest I choose to shoot, and the heaviest that I enjoy shooting.
Generally, for me, the heaviest I choose to shoot is .41 Magnum, while the heaviest I enjoy shooting is .357 Magnum.
This is an interesting topic and while I agree that the OP's test surely defines an upper limit, it also leaves one with a lot of questions, How fast is reasonably fast? what defines good hits? and a really important one is can I go faster with better accuracy, while gaining capacity without giving up enough terminal performance to cause me to lose the fight?
The one defensive gun that I knew put me at a disadvantage was my M&P340 when loaded with 145gr Silvertips, it twisted up something fierce in my hand every shot no matter what.
The one defensive gun that I knew put me at a disadvantage was my M&P340 when loaded with 145gr Silvertips, it twisted up something fierce in my hand every shot no matter what.
The reason I left this undefined is because different people have different standards for what they want to achieve based on their particular application.
Since this seems to be a real sticking point, for some reason, here's a website with a number of different practical drills and qualifiers including par times.
http://pistol-training.com/drills
.357
.357 in a 5-6" barrel is the most powerful I can shoot enough to be good with, and the most powerful that I can easily keep the weapon on target for follow up shots. I had a friend way back with a .41mag Blackhawk, that seemed OK.
.44 mag and .454 are simply too much for me. It is embarrassing, but my little sister had a .454 SA when she as a guide in grizzly country, and she loved it. I dreaded that thing. It was like a broadside from the USS Missouri.
.357 in a 5-6" barrel is the most powerful I can shoot enough to be good with, and the most powerful that I can easily keep the weapon on target for follow up shots. I had a friend way back with a .41mag Blackhawk, that seemed OK.
.44 mag and .454 are simply too much for me. It is embarrassing, but my little sister had a .454 SA when she as a guide in grizzly country, and she loved it. I dreaded that thing. It was like a broadside from the USS Missouri.
The more I think about this, the more it seems that this test tells us a lot more about gun/grip fit than it does about caliber/recoil. For example, I do not need to readjust my grip at all to fire an entire cylinder of full power .44 Magnum ammunition through my S&W 629 with the Hogue Monogrips that came on it, but I do have to readjust my grip for each shot with .38 Special +P ammunition through my younger brother's Ruger Security Six with the small wood panel grips that came on it. Now, the S&W obviously has far greater recoil than the Ruger due to it's much more powerful chambering, but because its grip fits my hand better, it would pass the test while the Ruger would fail.
Also, it seems to me that this test is only valid for semi-automatic pistols and double action revolvers. I say this because the "plow handle" grip of most single action revolvers is actually supposed to allow the gun to roll up in the hand as this better facilitates recocking the hammer with the shooting hand thumb. Now, some might say that this is a moot point because semi-auto pistols and DA revolvers are the most predominant types of handguns used for self-defense. While that may be true, however, there is a not-insignificant number of people who choose a SA revolver for self-defense and, by John's own description/explanation, this test is not limited to only one use of a handgun. While the person choosing to carry a SA revolver in a large city might be quite rare, the person choosing to carry one into the wilderness isn't all that rare so this distinction, I think, is worthy of mention.
Also, it seems to me that this test is only valid for semi-automatic pistols and double action revolvers. I say this because the "plow handle" grip of most single action revolvers is actually supposed to allow the gun to roll up in the hand as this better facilitates recocking the hammer with the shooting hand thumb. Now, some might say that this is a moot point because semi-auto pistols and DA revolvers are the most predominant types of handguns used for self-defense. While that may be true, however, there is a not-insignificant number of people who choose a SA revolver for self-defense and, by John's own description/explanation, this test is not limited to only one use of a handgun. While the person choosing to carry a SA revolver in a large city might be quite rare, the person choosing to carry one into the wilderness isn't all that rare so this distinction, I think, is worthy of mention.
Stevie-Ray
New member
You are right, the Competitor grip does NOT do what it was supposed to do, that is, cushion the shock of the heavy-kickers, especially for IHMSA. Mine wears one also, but also has a tapered barrel. Don't EVER try this. 300 gr .45-70s, a tapered barrel, even Magnaported, spells an extremely light hand-grenade. I detest it and haven't shot it in many years.