The heaviest caliber you can handle...

JohnKSa

Administrator
In my last match, I made some observations that are relevant to the comment we often hear when discussing caliber.

It's common for people to say: "Use/carry the heaviest caliber you can handle/shoot well." but it's much rarer for someone to explain how you can tell what that means for you.

First of all, it's important to understand that it's not simply a matter of caliber. Besides the caliber, the weight of the gun, the size and shape of the grip, and even the action type of the gun will all play a part in this equation.

Here's how you can tell if you are shooting more gun/caliber than is prudent for you.

You should be able to take a good shooting grip on the gun and shoot a full cylinder/magazine at a reasonably rapid pace (making good hits) without having to adjust/readjust your grip. If you can't do that then you need to work on your shooting, you need to consider another firearm/caliber combination, or both.

Now, don't assume that just because you CAN shoot a string without readjusting your grip that you are home free. This isn't a test that will tell you that everything is as it should be, it's a test to determine if there's an obvious problem. If you can keep a good grip all the way through a shot string then you can start looking at shot times and accuracy to determine if you're performing well.

If you can't shoot a good shot string without having to readjust your grip then your ability to make good hits in a timely fashion will be significantly impaired when using that weapon system. Based on my observations at the match, you can expect your performance (in terms of a combination of time and hits) to degrade by somewhere around 40% to 50%.

Given the accepted difficulty in hitting a moving target while under extreme stress, in my opinion it's unwise to take on additional handicaps.

Taking this in perspective, we need to realize that while there's a lot of debate about the performance of the various commonly recommended handgun self-defense cartridges, there isn't any evidence that picking a .40 over a 9mm or a .357Mag over a .40, for example is going to provide anywhere near enough of a terminal performance benefit to overcome a 40% to 50% disadvantage in shooting performance. In fact, the best evidence suggests that any truly practical terminal performance benefits are so minimal as to be very difficult to prove objectively. If that weren't true, the debate would have been over long ago.
 

lee n. field

New member
You should be able to take a good shooting grip on the gun and shoot a full cylinder/magazine at a reasonably rapid pace (making good hits) without having to adjust/readjust your grip. If you can't do that then you need to work on your shooting, you need to consider another firearm/caliber combination, or both.

ILCCWqualtarget27oct2013_zps93ff36e0.jpg


I think I'm OK with .40S&W.

(That's my Ill-i-noise CCW qual target. 3x10 rounds. Time, I don't recall, but it was over pretty darn quick. XD40 Service. It would be nice to re-do that now that I have the same thing in a subcompact.)
 

Dragline45

New member
I shoot the .40 fine, and pull off nice tight groups in rapid fire, but under the same circumstances I can pull off tighter groups with the 9mm. The 9mm does everything I need and could ask for, all while doing so with less recoil and a higher capacity than the .40. In regards to the effectiveness of the .40 over 9mm in stopping threats, I haven't seen anything conclusive that will lead me to believe that the .40 is a superior round, for all reasons stated I choose 9mm in all my carry and defensive handguns.

I like to put it this way. Do you think that in any given situation the .40 will get you out alive where a 9mm wouldn't? If you think the answer to that question is yes, by all means go with the .40, if not than go with 9mm.
 
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Sarge

New member
I have never seen anyone's shooting improve 40-50% by using a less effective gun. I have seen people improve 20-40% by applying themselves and learning to shoot a serious sidearm, really well.

My definition of 'good hits in a timely fashion' is 2-3 quick to the center-line or CNS with a .40+ caliber bullet carrying enough momentum to punch through intervening limbs.

It appears we disagree on few things.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
I have never seen anyone's shooting improve 40-50% by using a less effective gun.
I watched one shooter shooting two different categories with two different guns. With the first (9mm), he was able to maintain a shooting grip through an entire shot string. With the second (same brand and almost identical except for caliber--10mm), which recoiled more, he partially lost his weak hand grip after the first shot and either had to readjust his grip or continue shooting the rest of the string with the partial grip.

Comparing his scores (a combination of time and accuracy) revealed that his scores with the second gun were degraded by 40% to 50% compared to his performance with the first gun. The competitor scored in about the top 10% of a field of about 180 shooters using the first gun, so we're not talking about a beginning shooter.

That really shouldn't be a startling result, I just hadn't ever had an easy way to quantify the difference before. Actually I'm a little surprised that someone would disagree with the results. Are you saying that you do not believe that the inability to maintain a proper shooting grip through a shot string will cause a marked degradation in performance?
...less effective gun.
...a serious sidearm.
....40+ caliber bullet...
Ok, I think I can see where you're coming from. I'll just say that it's important that we not allow our preconceptions to prevent us from making observations and drawing logical conclusions.
...enough momentum to punch through intervening limbs.
I think you would find it instructive to review the penetration figures for currently available premium self-defense ammunition. Comparing apples to apples, the figures, across the board are very similar.
I think I'm OK with .40S&W.
I shoot the .40 fine...
I'm sure that everyone on this forum can handle any handgun, regardless of caliber, felt recoil, etc. just fine. But I figured that it might be worthwhile to propose a simple test that the members could provide to OTHER people to evaluate them in case the question ever came up. :D
 

Webleymkv

New member
Originally posted by JohnKSa
Here's how you can tell if you are shooting more gun/caliber than is prudent for you.

You should be able to take a good shooting grip on the gun and shoot a full cylinder/magazine at a reasonably rapid pace (making good hits) without having to adjust/readjust your grip. If you can't do that then you need to work on your shooting, you need to consider another firearm/caliber combination, or both.

A couple things need to be clarified here in order for this test to be useful. First, we need to define "reasonably rapid pace" because what's reasonably rapid to one person may be quite slow to another. For example, someone might consider one shot per second to be reasonably rapid, but for combat shooting I don't see it as particularly fast.

Secondly, a "good hit" should probably also be defined. Some might think that being able to keep all ones shots inside an area of a few inches is a "good hit" while others may consider simply keeping the majority of shots inside the lines of a man-sized silhouette target to be "good hits" for combat-type shooting.

Also, you have not specified the range that this test should be conducted at. Some people practice combat type handgun shooting at ranges as close as three yards or as far as fifty yards. Obviously, the test would be much easier at close range than long range.

Finally, and this mainly applies to revolvers, if the test doesn't go well there is another factor that should be considered in addition to shooting technique and firearm/caliber combination: the type of grips/stocks that are used. I can say from personal experience that a revolver, particularly in a heavy-recoiling caliber, can be a very different animal to shoot with grips that fit ones hands poorly as opposed to grips that fit ones hands well. For example, a S&W revolver feels completely different in the hand and handles recoil very differently depending on whether it's wearing Target or Magna-style stocks, and aftermarket stocks only add to this variation.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
First, we need to define "reasonably rapid pace" ... a "good hit" should probably also be defined... you have not specified the range...
In fact, a major reason this test is especially valuable is that it can easily be performed and the results evaluated without specifying any of those parameters.

It can be done on any range, at any distance, without a shot timer, and using any target available.

Have the shooter fire a shot string. If the shooter can't manage it without readjusting his/her grip during the string then there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Simple as that.
...if the test doesn't go well there is another factor that should be considered in addition to shooting technique and firearm/caliber combination: the type of grips/stocks that are used.
I agree.
JohnKSa said:
...the weight of the gun, the size and shape of the grip, and even the action type of the gun will all play a part in this equation.
 

Sarge

New member
I think you would find it instructive to review the penetration figures for currently available premium self-defense ammunition. Comparing apples to apples, the figures, across the board are very similar.

With premium ammo the differences are less than they used to be. I don't care to be dependent on premium ammo, especially in today's market.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Oddly enough, in today's market (and even at the height of the shortages), premium self-defense ammo is the easiest ammunition to find. It's the cheap practice stuff that has been hardest hit by the shortages.
 

Model12Win

Moderator
I can dump my .500 magnum mountain gun loaded with 700 grain maximum power loads in about 1.5 seconds if I really try.

I call it my anti-aircraft gun impression.

ENOUGH HUMOR! :mad:

The most heaviest power I can handle would probably be full-power .357 magnums out of my Ruger GP100 if we are talking about practical defensive shooting. Some Federal 357B's or the even hotter 125 grain loads can be a bit of a challenge for me personally to shoot quickly and with accuracy, but I have gotten to the point were I can. I really wouldn't want a gun with much more recoil because I've found me accuracy starts to suffer. One of the reasons why I've passed on various .44 magnum guns.

.357 magnum is PLENTY with good shot placement! :D
 

8MM Mauser

New member
I have never seen anyone's shooting improve 40-50% by using a less effective gun. I have seen people improve 20-40% by applying themselves and learning to shoot a serious sidearm, really well.

A "serious sidearm"? What's that?

Handguns are weak my friend, and they don't penetrate very well. 9MM, 40, and 45 perform so similarly in the real world (and in tests) that the difference is negligible. If you like .45 or .40 go ahead and shoot it, but if you think you're shooting some magic bullet that's gonna drop a BG any faster you're making a bet on a handgun caliber. I wouldn't. We carry handguns for convenience not "power."

If you really think a 9MM is "less effective" that a .40 or whatever you must be looking at a different data set than me. Fact is modern defensive 9MM is every bit as effective as the heavier calibers, and if you can shoot it better it makes more sense to shoot a gun with faster follow up shots.
 
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Jimmy10mm

New member
For target shooting sight alignment, sights in sharp focus, target a blur, with proper trigger control works no matter what I shoot. 44 magnum to 22LR. Shot so much 44 when I was in my 20s that I became 'hardened' to recoil.

Now I do a fair amount of point shooting at the range because it makes more sense to be practiced with that method, since in a SHF situation that is probably what you'll do. I routinely carry a .40 and no sweat being accurate or with follow up shots. The same with 10mm and I have a holster on the way for the G-29 for that purpose. :)
 

PetahW

New member
.

The heaviest "handgun" cartridge I've ever shot was the .454 Casull, and the Ruger SRH was very comfortable to shoot/hunt with. . :cool:

The absolute heaviest cartridge I've ever shot/hunted with in a handgun, however, was a .45-70 - in a T/C Contender Super 16 Hunter.
The issue cushion grip sucked, though :eek: - but everything was made right, after I installed a Pachmayr rubber bumper. . :p


.
 
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Sarge

New member
For target shooting sight alignment, sights in sharp focus, target a blur, with proper trigger control works no matter what I shoot. 44 magnum to 22LR. Shot so much 44 when I was in my 20s that I became 'hardened' to recoil.

Same here except I wore a Model 29 out twice, by 50. Now I realize not everyone has that base of experience or a tolerance for handgun recoil. My earlier comments were made after picking apart numerous gunfights, reviewing lots of post-mortems and shooting a fair pile of critters with a pistol. Granted these are no substitute for photos of dyed jello blocks; so if my comments are contrary to what you choose to believe, pay them no mind. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind.

I agree with John that it is far better to carry a gun you can shoot, than a gun you can't shoot. But my experience is that when you are shooting for keeps, you don't notice recoil at all. YMMV
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
Recoil tolerance is really only peripherally related to this topic.

I have shot some guns with very unpleasant recoil that still allowed me to maintain a proper shooting grip through an entire shot string. I don't like shooting those guns and don't shoot them a lot, but I can shoot them well, even if I have to shoot them fast.

I have some other guns that I consider pleasant to shoot that cause me to have to readjust my grip after each shot due to the combination of recoil, action type, size/configuration of the grip, etc. I enjoy shooting these guns and can shoot them well if time is not a concern. But if time is an issue, I take a significant performance hit when shooting guns in this category because I have to constantly readjust my grip between shots (which takes time) or I have to live with the degraded grip (which hurts accuracy).

I agree that all things being equal, people tend to shoot better with guns that recoil less, but more muzzle flip or more felt recoil doesn't degrade shooting performance (time and accuracy combined) nearly as much as the inability to keep a good shooting grip on the pistol through an entire shot string.
 

Jimmy10mm

New member
I agree with John that it is far better to carry a gun you can shoot, than a gun you can't shoot.
A Big +1 on that. My only point is that if you know how to shoot, sight alignment, trigger control etc ....... anyone should be able to shoot anything short of a 454 Casull and the like. Though I can shoot a 44 magnum, I'd rather pack a .40S&W or maybe a 10mm for the prospect of using it in a self defense situation. I don't advocate too much of a good thing under those circumstances. Kind of like there is a time and a place for some things and that time and place doesn't fit all folks for all situations. If a 9mm makes a man happy more power to him. :)
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
My only point is that if you know how to shoot, sight alignment, trigger control etc ....... anyone should be able to shoot anything short of a 454 Casull and the like.
Sure, until you go on the clock (or get into a self-defense situation) and need to turn in good accuracy with multiple shots in a short timeframe. Then, unless you can keep a good shooting grip on the gun from one shot to the next without readjusting, you're either going to have to live with a speed penalty from constantly reacquiring your grip or an accuracy penalty from shooting with a firing grip that's been degraded/"broken" by the recoil from the previous shots in the string.
 

Guv

New member
PethaW,

I thought the 454SRH 7.5 was much worse than my mates T/C Super 16 45-70, even with 300gr hp's.
 

Hammerhead

New member
I've gone 'round and 'round the speed/power/accuracy triangle for 20 years, never really finding a good compromise.

Finally I have settled on a mid size poly .45 auto with 200 grain plated/jacketed SWC target loads (~850 fps). Same exact load for practice and home defense. I see no need to hot rod the .45 auto, let the SWC's do the work. They are very shootable one handed, easy on the ears and very accurate out to 50 yards. The gun (HK45C) locks into my hand like nothing else.

I've given up on revolvers as defensive guns. Too much muzzle blast with defensive loads for me and my tinnitus, and the grips never really lock into my hand like a properly fitting auto.

Where was this thread 20 years ago? ;)
 
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