The effect of heavy charges on a brass frame

M

maillemaker

New member
You often here the admonition against heavy charges in brass-framed revolvers because it can harm the frame.

This picture clearly illustrates the damage that can happen when heavy charges batter the back of the cylinder against the frame.

Photo by Maggs. Frame by Doc Hoy.

UIke822.jpg


Steve
 
D

Doc Hoy

New member
TT

I got the frame in a group of parts with a missing arbor.

I got hold of an arbor to practice installing and stabilizing the arbor.

It is essentially a test bed. No value. So I gave it to Maggs to compare the hand slot with his own frame.
 
T

TemboTusk

New member
That makes sense. I love stout loads in my revolvers and originally wondered if the brass frame had endured enough full loads to loosen the arbor. I understand now that is not the issue here.

I do see the full load markings on shield; interesting!
 
C

Captainkirk

New member
Tembo, I have personally seen a brass Colt shoot the arbor loose to the point where the roll pin simply fell out. Threads in the brass were worn to the point that even drilling and tapping the roll pin hole, installing a threaded allen set screw and using LocTite on the arbor threads would not hold it.
 
E

enyaw

New member
There's a remedy that can be used to fortify a brass frame recoil shield tomake the guns last danged near ferever.
Take a narrow rimmed bushing 7/8th's by 1 and 3/8th's in 14 gauge and make a lil steel backplate to solder on the frame around the ring on the recoil shield.

Cut the bushing to go(look at the pic above) from the hammer recess around and down under the arbor all the way to the beginning of the loading port. The bushing should cover the solid flat part of the recoil shield outside the ring on it. Solder it to the frame.

The steel backplate takes the force of the cylinder and spreads it out on a wide surface instead of the little skinny ring.The steel holds up well.

The thing to watch fer is that after the bushing is soldered on the frame ,since it's the same height as the ring and wide, it now can let the caps hit it and chainfire all the chambers at once. Therefore the cones/nipples need sunk in or stoned off the same amount as the thickness of the bushing/height of the ring on the recoil shield.

Once that's done the pistol will last as long as a steel frame revolver if........the wedge is always set right and the cylinder gap is at the minimum and the barrel is a good fit on the arbor with not a lot of slop. In other words the revolver isn't fired with any undo loose to the barrel/wedge/frame/arbor fit. Like any Colt type revolver.

Doing the little backplate made from the bushing on a new unfired brass framer sets it up to last a long time with normal(not reduced) charges of powder.

The narrow rimmed bushings are sold at hardware stores and the like. I get mine from a tractor parts place. The bushings are used to take the slop out of things on/in tractors or machinery like transmissions and the like with shafts and all.
The size I stated above is a real close fit to most brass framer cap&ballers. Do a little filing and cutting to the bushing to fit it right around the outside of the ring on the recoil shield.

The brass gun I have was done in the mid eighties and is still going just as tight as the day I bought it. I've fired thousands of balls thru it.

Brass framers are cheaper to buy and with the narrow rimmed bushing set up soldered on the recoil shield they last plenty long enough.

Normal loads like 22gr. in a 36cal and 25-28gr.on a 44cal. won't break the guns down after the fix and......the arbors stay tight as long as the gun is maintained well. That means the wedge is kept fit proper and all that meaning don't let it get loose and still fire it. Keep it tight with a proper cylinder gap and all that. Make sure the balls (chambers) are aligned well with the bore of the barrel too so the balls don't hit the edge of the barrel all the time trying to hit the barrel off the frame.
 
Last edited:
R

Rifleman1776

New member
I have to wonder: why use heavy charges in a C&B at all?
My approach would be (I gave up shooting C&B a long time ago) to use charges that work best. I see no reason to beat up myself and the gun.
Plus, you know brass/bronze frames are cheaper and not as strong as steel. Using heavy charges is pointless. Want stronger? Buy stronger.
 
T

TemboTusk

New member
I have to wonder: why use heavy charges in a C&B at all?
My approach would be (I gave up shooting C&B a long time ago) to use charges that work best. I see no reason to beat up myself and the gun.
Plus, you know brass/bronze frames are cheaper and not as strong as steel. Using heavy charges is pointless. Want stronger? Buy stronger.
Click to expand...


A full load in a C&B is not exactly bone jarring and what exactly is the charge that works best??

A brass frame Colt is a thing of beauty and I love shooting them as many people do. I want them to last as long as possible with the load I prefer.

Enyaw, interesting information, love to see pictures as well.
 
M

maillemaker

New member
I have to wonder: why use heavy charges in a C&B at all?
My approach would be (I gave up shooting C&B a long time ago) to use charges that work best. I see no reason to beat up myself and the gun.
Plus, you know brass/bronze frames are cheaper and not as strong as steel. Using heavy charges is pointless. Want stronger? Buy stronger.
Click to expand...

If you are shooting for precision on the target, then of course it's all about load development. You shoot what gives you the best accuracy.

However, a lot of people enjoy shooting historical firearms to get a feel for what it was like to, well, shoot historical firearms! That means shooting them with historically-accurate loads.

All of my black powder arms develop maximum accuracy with sub-standard loads. But if you want to feel what it felt like to shoot the real thing, it's 30 grains in the 1860 and 1858 and 60 grains in the Walker.

Of course, if you are interested in historical accuracy you probably won't be buying a brass-framed revolver anyway for most of the replicas currently available in brass.

Steve
 
C

Captainkirk

New member
On Remmy brassers, excessive charging can and will slightly stretch the frame to the point where the cylinder gap becomes excessive. On the Colts, the problem (in addition to the ones Wayne mentioned) is that the brass threads in the frame actually stretch and distort and will simply no longer keep the arbor tight. Such is what happened to my son's Pietta. The only fix that worked was to buy a new brass frame and not overstuff like the PO did.....obviously, a lot.
I believe 18-20 gr as a max load for .36 cal and 25gr as a max load for .44 guns will keep the gun alive and kicking longer than the owner.
 
E

enyaw

New member
I can't post pics but I can help people imagine.
Look at the above pic of the newer frame.
Imagine a steel flat thin washer type bushing that covers the flat part around the ring on the frame. The bushing covers all the flat part just about out to the edge.
The flat isn't where the hammer recess is and isn't where the loading port is.
The narrow rimmed bushing is filed a bit to fit snug against the ring and cut off where the hammer recess is and the loading port is. Only soldered on the flat part.
From the side of the gun after the bushing is soldered on you can see a thin edge of the steel bushing.
Regular ole 60/40 acid core solder works real well fer this.
You can repair a banged in ring on the recoil shield or ,best, is to put the bushing on when the gun is new.

I try to explain that if a brass frame arbor is tight to begin with and the cylinder gap doesn't enlarge from the space caused by the ring getting beat in and the wedge is maintained the arbors don't pull out of the threads very easily.
If a Colt gets loose then it accelerates the loosening if still shot when it begins to get loose. Loose in the wedge,loose in the cylinder gap.

If a person wanted to bolster the arbor from pulling out the threads then before it happens a pin can be pressed fit into the frame and down into the arbor to hold it better. Usually not needed but it woun't hurt.
Won't hurt anything unless the pin isn't thin enough and the hole fer it is too big so it weakens the end of the arbor. The pin is driven in the hole drilled "down thru the arbor/frame"(from the top down perpendicular to the regular lock pin in the end of the arbor).

I've fixed loose brass frame arbors several ways over time.

One is the pin down from the top thru the arbor and frame but the hole doesn't go all the way thru the frame (can't come out te bottom). Might be in conjunction with a split thin washer on the arbor stoned the proper thickness that is opened and then squeezed back so it stays on the arbor between the theads on it and the shoulder of it. That area is smaller in diameter than the threads so a washer spacer doesn't fit right if it's just slide over the threads. The area the shoulder of the arbor bears against the brass frame can get peened in some in the worst cases. The thin split washer,shim,spacer tightens that part up.

I've taken the arbors out completely and filed(carefully) or milled the ring right the heck off the frame. Shortened the nipples cones or set the shoulder fer the nips lower so the cylinder that bears right against the frame without the ring(lets the force of the cylinder bear on the frame spread out to minimize the effect of the cylinder banging the frame like a Remington.) can't chainfire the caps.
Then set the barrel back and fit a wedge and all that so the cylinder gap is proper again.

I've rebated or countersunk the area around the back end of the loose arbor so......the area could be braised in making the end of the arbor "one with the frame". That can't loosen up too soon again and the arbor can't pull the threads either.

I've drilled a nice hole in the frame above the arbor and had that braised in too so the frame was braised to the arbor.
Some of the fixes can be done to revitalize even frames with the threads dang near gone to set a cap&baller brass framer back to shootin good.
I even marked where the center should be beforehand and had the whole hole in the frame where the arbor screws in braised in completely and redrilled and retapped the frame threads back in so the threads were new. Gotta watch that too much brass isn't melted in the hand recess though.Can't do that by hand so a drill press or milling machine is needed.

Once I even made a ring that was put on the cylinder around the indexing ratchet after removing the beat up brass ring on the frame. It's just a way to put the ring on the cylinder to keep the caps from chainfiring. The spacer on the cylinder is just stuck on like an extra part so it comes off the cylinder when the cylinder is taken off. That can dent the brass frame in a ring around the hole where the index ratchets go but it can be renewed with a new thicker one when needed.
The best way is to put the bushing spacer on the frame like I mentioned in the beginning of this because that spreads the force from the cylinder out more and the cylinder doesn't damage things.
It's like Colt should have not had that ring on the frame at all. Should have just set the nipples a lil deeper so they wouldn't chainfire.
There are ways to fix things with the brass framers but.....easier to just put the thin backplate of steel around the ring on the frame to prevent the ring from peening in. The bushing solder on when the gun is yet new and unfired.

About arbors pulling the frame threads out......
Don't let things get loose fer starters.

Make sure the arbor is bottomed properly in the barrels hole also. When the arbor isn't bottomed in the barrels hole right then......the nice tight wedge that people like to tighten up by tapping it further in has a detrimental effect.

Without the arbor being able to stop in the bottom of the barrel hole the wedge force becomes a force that wants to try to pull the arbor out of the frame once the barrel can't be pulled back into the frame any more.
When the barrel stops and the arbor isn't at the bottom of the barrels hole then the only space open is between the arbor and the bottom of the hole. All that immence force the wedge can generate once the barrel stops against the frame can weaken the frame threads since the wedge is trying to pull the arbor from the threads in the frame so the arbor can find the bottom of the barrels hole.
Same type thing applies to steel framers too.

That is where most of the "pull the frame threads out" or the "thread stretch" comes from. That force from the wedge and the non-bottomed arbor is stronger than the force of the lead ball hitting the rifling and engraving it and with friction travels the barrel.

That's a reason too to make sure the alignment of the chambers to the bore is right on in tolerance or range. No sense having the ball hit barrel edge and help pull the threads in the frame.

Another problen area that can loosen the arbor threads is when the frame pins are loose in the barrels pin holes and....inconjunction with the barrels arbor hole being too loose around the arbor. That pulls the barrel down and back at the breech end till the top of the barrels hole at the beginning stops when it hits the top of the arbor. When the gun fires the barrel wants to cant the other opposite way because of the loose in the barrels arbor hole and the loose frame pin holes. That can work the force on the arbor like trying to wiggle it up and down every time the gun fires and eventually weaken the brass frame threads.

Best to take a thin shim of brass or copper and lay it on top the arbor above where the wedge goes (above the wedge slot) and insert the shim in there on top the arbor when the barrelis inserted on the arbor.
It's important that the barrels arbor hole is not very loose on the arbor. that makes for...well.....looseness that helps wring parts apart.

The only way to make an arbor tight in a loose barrel hole is to make a bigger diameter arbor or place a spacer shim on top the arbor and get it in the hole in the barrel when the arbor goes in.
Makes a big difference for several reasons if the barrel is a snug fit in the barrels hole. Lotsof cap&baller Colts have barrel holes so out of specs it's a cryin shame.
Anyway......there are other reasons an arbor starts to pull the frame threads besides the frame being made of brass. If the gun ain't loose it stays together and the frames arbor threads last a long time.



Anywhoooooo.......that bout wraps it up Hombres.
 
Last edited:
S

Smokin'Joe

New member
enyaw, a few years ago I modified your idea to tighten up a worn brass frame Wells Fargo. Instead of a washer I simply installed recoil pads in the recoil shield. This eliminated the possibility of chain fires while providing all the benefits of your washer modification. It works great. Thanks for the idea. Take a look. Photos in post 7.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482206
 
H

Hellgate

New member
enyaw,
Ya thinkin' of something like this from McMaster Carr?

Metric Spring Steel Shim - DIN 988
1.0mm Thick, 18mm ID, 25mm OD

Packs of 25
In stock
$7.76 per pack of 25
98055A232

I measured my recoil ring on a Pietta brasser Navy and the outer diameter was 0.9", inner diameter 0.7" . converted roughly to metric thats 18mm outer, 23 mm inner and 1mm thick is the shim I found at McMaster Carr. would these work? They are steel. You can get various thicknesses. I would think you could chuck the arbor into a lathe and trim the recoil ring down a couple mms and get a thicker shim to solder on.
 
C

Captainkirk

New member
All good points, Wayne. In my son's case, the gun was frazzed up before he even got it. We tried doing the Loctite Red gel on the threads, drilled and tapped the roll pin hole for a 4-40 allen set screw and locked it down tight. It loosened up before the end of the second cylinder full.
Maybe knowing what I know now through your post, I could have saved it, but I got a brand-new Pietta frame off GB for 15 bucks...hard to pass up.
 
J

James K

Member In Memoriam
There really is no reason for a brass frame except to look like a "Confederate" revolver. If that is the goal, fine, polish it up and hang it on the wall with a tag saying it was carried by Robert E. Lee.* If you want to shoot the gun, buy a steel frame** and shoot the heck out of it.

Hi, Doc Hoy,

You can't really install an arbor right on a finished gun. The factory installs the arbor first, drills the hole for the retaining pin, then cuts and adjusts the slot for the wedge and trims the front end to adjust the B/C gap. The back of the arbor is then adjusted to act as a hammer stop and set the hammer-nipple gap.

*Lee, being pretty smart, had nothing to do with those brass frame copies; he carried a Colt Navy.
** Modern frames are steel; the originals were wrought iron, except the Dance guns which were cut from cold rolled iron boilerplate.

Jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top