The Dangers of Traffic Stops for Concealed Carriers - Minnesota Incident

[Ton]

I (or anybody else for that matter) don't know what happened prior to or during the shooting. So I will not speculate. The one thing I will say is that in the aftermath of several critical incidents I have experienced while on duty, people have pulled out cell phones and began recording while giving a prologue quite different than the way I remembered things happening.

People don't understand that everyone else can not telepathically know the things that they know. I have a Doberman Pinscher and a Rottweiler. The Doberman is about 80lbs and the Rottie is about 100 pounds. Neither has ever displayed any signs of aggression toward anybody. I know this. However, if my dogs broke loose from my backyard and ran full speed toward a stranger on the street, regardless of the fact that they just wanted to play, I would absolutely understand if he/she felt in fear of serious bodily harm or death and reacted accordingly.

Police have to carefully walk an ever thinning line between being indicted on criminal charges and being murdered on duty. I get on facebook and read the stories several police controversies this year, then I get on the Officer Down Memorial Page and read the stories of my 29 brothers and sisters who have been murdered in the line of duty this year. Then I get up, take a shower, head to the station, put on my uniform and 30 pounds of gear, walk out into the 110 degree weather and hope by the grace of god I can read every situation correctly and don't end up on the news before the end of my shift.

Okay, off of my soapbox. I stop people on duty all the time that are armed. This:

I place my hands on the steering wheel immediately. I do not reach for my paper work. I sit with my hands on the wheel until the officer can visibly see them. I then inform the officer that I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and that I am armed.

is the best way handle the situation. This lets the officer know not only that you are armed, but that you are well informed and responsible. Let them decide how they want to proceed from there, and listen carefully. If you have any questions or issues with the stop, it's not a good time to address them. Save them for the conclusion of the stop or call in later. While a simple "Why'd you stop me?" is not a hostile question, the vast majority of the time it's a question officers hear from hostile people.

I don't get wrapped around the axle about guns on traffic stops. However, I run into them fairly regularly, AND I've never had somebody try to shoot me on a traffic stop.

One last thing, and strictly an opinion. Whether or not there is a duty to inform, it is always a good idea. I don't know a single cop who would not want someone to make them aware they were carrying during a traffic stop. While not always illegal, if the cop ends up making the discovery on their own, it probably won't help the situation any.

Just my .02 cents on the matter.

 

[manta49]

Manta 49, Never been approached in traffic stop in WI, USA with a gun drawn. Hand on pistol by LEO in holster only, accepatable to me.

I could live with that, if a officer approached me in my car gun drawn i would be making a complaint to the police ombudsman.

Officers fearing retaliation for something they had nothing to do with are also likely to respond with increased reaction. And it spirals. I have no idea how one fixes it.

Training and it made clear to police officers that if they get it wrong they will be going to jail.

 

[deerslayer303]

When I first got my CWP I changed my vehicle SOP. Now the registration and insurance card are on the sun visor in all of our vehicles. Gun is carried on right hip and wallet is in my left back pocket. I haven't been stopped yet but I don't want anything I have to produce to be near where I am carrying.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Lohman446]

I could live with that, if a officer approached me in my car gun drawn i would be making a complaint to the police ombudsman.

Its been a lot of years since I was stopped but I think if I noticed an officer approaching the car with the gun drawn I would deem it in everyone's best interest to end that traffic stop and leave (while calling 911 to report the situation). Am I drastically out of line on that issue?

 

[manta49]

I would deem it in everyone's best interest to end that traffic stop and leave (while calling 911 to report the situation). Am I drastically out of line on that issue?

The problem with that is seeing how easily some seem to be spooked i would be concerned that would be enough for some officers to start shooting.

 

[Lohman446]

The problem with that is seeing how easily some seem to be spooked i would be concerned that would be enough for some officers to start shooting.

This is not something that I have fully thought out because it really just occurred to me to think about. Not to make this a race thing but if there is a victimized race here I am not it. I would expect it would be a dramatic failure of training for an officer to shoot at a fleeing car after a traffic stop.

 

[TXAZ]

Let me say this a different way: It's in your interest to not get shot, regardless of what you have or have not done. The best way to do that, is to follow directions exactly, without any quick moves. If you are given contradictory directions or don't understand, then ask which the officer wants you to do first.

Whether or not the police are under siege, it can be a scary journey from the squad car to the driver side door. The officer may have just fought off a combative subject, and the fact is the adrenaline continues to pump for some time after. Maybe that's a bad luck for you, but don't give them an opportunity to do their "NN dance" on you as a way to vent frustration. And I've never been a cop but rode with enough of them as a senior manager at a large police organization to realize it's a job I couldn't do.

There are a lot of uber Type-A personalities in policing that might better be suited to the SWAT team or just outside policing. I've met officers that fright at at an unknown noise and should be working elsewhere, an unfortunately met officer that openly expressed a desire to (commit a serious felony) against someone they didn't like. Luckily, the latter is no longer employed as an officer.
But quite frankly, there are a majority of officers that are incredible public servants that do the right thing, and want to go home to their families and want you to do the same.

 

[Lohman446]

But quite frankly, there are a majority of officers that are incredible public servants that do the right thing, and want to go home to their families and want you to do the same.

I think this is a vital piece of the narrative that gets lost sometimes.

 

[Ton]

Its been a lot of years since I was stopped but I think if I noticed an officer approaching the car with the gun drawn I would deem it in everyone's best interest to end that traffic stop and leave (while calling 911 to report the situation). Am I drastically out of line on that issue?

Yes, it's a felony.

Training and it made clear to police officers that if they get it wrong they will be going to jail.

Training in what? That this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMxRTWwcWrs
or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGNv5WVZDg or this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/ne...Police-officer-shot-dead-Vietnam-veteran.html

can't and won't happen on a traffic stop? That everybody's word should be taken at face value?

If a police officer approaches with a gun drawn, there is clearly a reason. Never assume you know the reason for the stop. Maybe dirtbag joe just switched your license plate with the license plate of the vehicle he just stole while you were in the grocery store shopping. Maybe a guy with the same basic profile as you and driving the same car as you just robbed the gas station down the street.

If you feel that the way you were treated or approached is out of line, call internal affairs and report it after the fact. Attempting to deal with the problem during the stop is a fast way to get somebody hurt.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I have said several times before on this forum that the time and place to think about where you keep your wallet/ID in relation to your gun is NOW rather than when the officer is walking up to the back of your car and you think "Oh crap... my gun... my wallet..."

For anyone who has friends who are police officers, ASK THEM how they and their fellow officers prefer you to behave when you get pulled over.

For those who don't have such friends, and even those who do, I highly recommend the book "A Speeder's Guide to Avoiding Tickets", written by a retired NY State Trooper. This is NOT, I say again, NOT for avoiding tickets, but for the valuable information it contains about an officers mindset during a traffic stop.

In general, the only moving about you want to do when you're pulled over and prior to the officers arrival at your window is enough to turn on your interior lights if it's night (which helps the officer see inside your car and sends an unmistakable message that you're trying to be helpful and courteous), turn off your radio, turn off your ignition, put your window down and put your hands on the wheel, relaxed. I personally keep my palms out so I'm not gripping the wheel. After the officer arrives at your window, be polite, be respectful, and DO NOT MOVE unless you are asked to do so AND explain what you are doing and why.

For example:
Officer: "License and registration, please"

You: "Certainly officer. My license is in my back right pocket and the registration is in the glove box. Let me get those for you."

Then move SLOWLY and deliberately and only do EXACTLY as you stated, or exactly according to their instructions.

 

[Lohman446]

If a police officer approaches with a gun drawn, there is clearly a reason

I noted earlier that TXAZ was right. The majority (the VAST majority) of police officers want to do the job, have everyone go home at night, and go home themselves.

However blanket statements such as this that defend an officer even in the hypothetical don't always make this clear. You have effectively made the point that if an officer drew a gun "well there must have been a reason" If there can not be a situation where the officer is in the wrong in drawing his or her gun there can be no meaningful conversation about errors.

 

[Tom Servo]

Two concerns spring to mind. The first is that we don't know the full situation. We have the video of the aftermath, but we don't know what led to the shooting. We only have the word of the passenger, who may not be telling the whole or correct story.

Second, I echo what many have said. I started carrying when CCW was still a new phenomenon in many places. We were trained not to do anything that might spook an officer during a traffic stop.

Case in point: a friend of mine was in law enforcement in Florida in the early 1990's. He pulled over a driver for rolling through a red light. The driver was armed and licensed. As the officer approached the car, he saw the driver holding a pistol between his legs and racking the slide.

He came a hair's breadth from killing that driver. The actual story? The driver thought the officer might want to take possession of the gun, so he was clearing it.

So, yeah. If pulled over (which doesn't happen often if we're responsible drivers, right?), I have relevant identification out, my interior lights on, and my hands in plain view. I inform the officer I have a pistol (not "I have a gun") and ask him how he'd like to proceed. I've only been pulled over once while carrying, and the officer simply thanked my and asked me not to handle the weapon for the duration of the stop.

 

[Ton]

However blanket statements such as this that defend an officer even in the hypothetical don't always make this clear. You have effectively made the point that if an officer drew a gun "well there must have been a reason" If there can not be a situation where the officer is in the wrong in drawing his or her gun there can be no meaningful conversation about errors.

I'm not saying that an officer cannot be wrong. I am saying that unless he is seriously mentally ill, an officer isn't just going to pull his gun out on a traffic stop because he likes the way it feels in his hand.

The point is that in that moment, there will be absolutely no way for you to know why the officer is approaching you with a gun drawn. And just saying "Well I haven't done anything to warrant this, so I'm going to leave" is going to earn you some jail time at the very least.

 

[Lohman446]

I think how you inform the officer is important as well. My rehearsed (I think I used it twice some time ago) statement was always "I have a concealed carry permit and am carrying a firearm" No gun word. I live in a small town, am a member of the majority population, and have a well respected last name (thanks Grandpa, Dad, Uncles). I don't actually see a strong chance of having any issues.

 

[zincwarrior]

What i don't get is why do police in America approach a traffic stop hyped up gun drawn, its asking for this type of incident to happen. The police here have more reason to be wary stopping a car than in America but i have never seen them approaching a car gun draw.

Quote:
I place my hands on the steering wheel immediately. I do not reach for my paper work. I sit with my hands on the wheel until the officer can visibly see them. I then inform the officer that I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and that I am armed.
Its a bad situation when you have to fear being shot at a traffic stop, just because you have a firearm does not give the police the right to shoot you.

Lets be real here, this can happen regardless of whether you are armed. The advice of keeping both hands on the wheel with all needed docs already in hand are taught by many parents to their children as I have done.

 

[manta49]

I have relevant identification out, my interior lights on, and my hands in plain view. I inform the officer I have a pistol (not "I have a gun") and ask him how he'd like to proceed. I've only been pulled over once while carrying, and the officer simply thanked my and asked me not to handle the weapon for the duration of the stop

Should you have to do that for fear of being shot by the police. I know here if i get stopped i can do all the sudden movements i want not comply with the officers instructions tell him where to go.( not that i would ) And have no fear or concern that i will be shot.

Training in what? That this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMxRTWwcWrs
or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGNv5WVZDg or this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/new...m-veteran.html

Training in not overacting, as i posted the police here have more reason to be wary of traffic stops than in America, but i have never seen a police officer approach a car with hand on firearm in the holster or drawn out of holster. Having said that there will always be at least two or more officers here they never patrol alone.

 

[zincwarrior]

Should you have to do that for fear of being shot by the police. I know here if i get stopped i can do all the sudden movements i want not comply with the officers instructions tell him where to go.( not that i would ) And have no fear or concern that i will be shot.

Respectfully, should is utterly irrelevant. There is the way things ought to be and the way things are.

 

[tony pasley]

My SOP is to carry DL, CCW, Insurance, and registration I a case in my shirt pocket and it is in my hand before I stop. Pull to a safe spot turn off engine with window down about 2 ". Hands in clear view.
Don't feel something is right I call 911 or *HP and verify while driving slow with flashers on asking dispatch to explain I am verifying the Officer and finding a safe place to stop for both of us. Only had to do the last but the Officer Understood and all was good.

I do inform required or not just to be safe from nervous Nellies.

 

[manta49]

Respectfully, should is utterly irrelevant. There is the way things ought to be and the way things are.

We would not accept that type of behaviour by the police here, if that was the way things were it would be changed.

 

[zincwarrior]

You're in Northern Ireland correct? Not seeing how this relates as I do not believe you are allowed access to pistols much less CC or car carry (or inversely as police dealing with such or more importantly the average machine gun toting cartel member). Its a different environment.


Again, to the point what is acceptable or not is not relevant to real world advice on how to act. Incorrect actions can lead to your death on this subject.