Texas School Shooting

[Metal god]

Not in schools. Schools have to be constructed of non-combustible materials. Building and fire codes even set limits on how much of the [non-combustible] wall surfaces can be covered by paper (bulletin boards, art work, etc.). Fires in schools almost always involve the building contents, not the building materials.

I had no idea that every school ever built has been remodeled to the new standard of building codes . Are you sure schools are built this way or did you mean all new school construction shall follow these codes ? I don't think the schools I attended in the 70's were built of these materials and they are still active schools today . In fact if I had to guess I'd bet the over whelming majority of schools are not built from these materials .

Fires in schools almost always involve the building contents, not the building materials.

When that content does burn it's often very toxic . My guess is half the deaths it fires are do to smoke and toxins incapacitating the victims first . IMHO it's important to get out of any building on fire regardless of the building codes they followed when building the structure .

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I had no idea that every school ever built has been remodeled to the new standard of building codes . Are you sure schools are built this way or did you mean all new school construction shall follow these codes ? I don't think the schools I attended in the 70's were built of these materials and they are still active schools today . In fact if I had to guess I'd bet the over whelming majority of schools are not built from these materials .

As a licensed architect and a licensed building inspector, I'd guess that your guess is wrong. The grammar school I attended in the 1950s was originally built in the 1930s. The first addition, in which my first grade and third grade classes were held, was built of all non-combustible materials. The second addition was constructed while I was in the fifth and sixth grades, and I watched the masons erecting the concrete block walls through the window next to my desk. That was in 1955-56. This school hasn't been used as a school since the mid-1960s.

Building and fire safety codes have mandated non-combustible construction for schools since the 1960s. Prior to that, I'm sure schools used at least some wood framing -- typically encased in horsehair plaster, which is very resistant to fire. The possibility of a tracer bullet setting the construction materials of even the oldest school building on fire is almost non-existent. And very few of those old school buildings are still used as schools. (My old grammar school is now town offices.) I would say that with about 95 percent certainty any school you attended in the 1970s was constructed of non-combustible materials.

When that content does burn it's often very toxic .

Paper smoke isn't usually toxic. However, that's irrelevant. The statement to which I responded was that a tracer would set the building materials on fire.

 

[Metal god]

A friend of mine built a private school here in CA and still owns and runs it . I'll pick his brain on this to see what materials were mandated . Well as I was writing this my buddy already got back to me . He said you are correct , his school is mostly all brick , concrete and steel .

Thanks for the info , I had no idea that was the code

 

[MTT TL]

Fires in schools almost always involve the building contents, not the building materials.

Now that you mention it the last tracer fire I observed (not at a school but at a former military barracks) was caused by igniting contents. The shots went through the cinder block wall, embedded in and ignited contents on the other side. The contents of the room burnt and the building filled with smoke but the building itself did not burn.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

^^^ Yepp. Fire is fire, the heat doesn't much care what's burning to produce it. I'm not at all trying to downplay the dangers of fires, but if we're going to be tossing out statements about what starts fires I think we should try to be accurate, rather than spreading misinformation.

Another factor to consider is that all schools built in the last 20 years or so probably have full sprinkler protection. Parkland looks new enough that I'd guess it's sprinklered. Contrary to the way they show it in movies, other than a few specialty ("deluge") systems, when a fire activates a sprinkler system, not all the heads go off. Each head is independent, activated by a thermal fuse on the head itself. The head or heads nearest and above the fire will go off first, and additional heads get triggered only if the fire continues to spread rather than being extinguished or at least controlled by the initial sprinkler activation.

What this means is that mass fire evacuations in fully sprinklered buildings probably aren't necessary. In the event of a shooter, obviously getting everyone out into the corridors just creates a shooting gallery, so maybe schools (those with sprinklers) should be looking at a shelter in place procedure for fires rather than immediate, mass evacuations.

The widespread use of alarm systems also suggests that maybe having manual pull stations in school buildings isn't a good idea. There are smoke alarms that can detect products of combustion in the air before we can even see or smell them. Why do we need manual pull stations? They're an anachronism.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Here's what the 2012 International Building Code says about sprinkler system requirements. The IBC is the basis for all building codes in the United States, as far as I know. It comes out every three years, so there are 2015 and 2018 versions in the wild. I have 2012 because my state is still in the process of adopting a newer version.

903.2 Where required. Approved automatic sprinkler
systems in new buildings and structures shall be provided in
the locations described in Sections 903.2.1 through 903.2.12.

...

903.2.3 Group E. An automatic sprinkler system shall
be provided for Group E occupancies as follows:
1. Throughout all Group E fire areas greater than
12,000 square feet (1115 m2) in area.
2. Throughout every portion of educational buildings
below the lowest level of exit discharge serving that
portion of the building.

Exception: An automatic sprinkler system is not
required in any area below the lowest level of exit
discharge serving that area where every classroom
throughout the building has at least one
exterior exit door at ground level.​

Use group E is schools, including kindergarten through grade 12.

 

[MTT TL]

Why do we need manual pull stations? They're an anachronism.

1. In case the automated system fails
2. Ditch class early on Fridays




My county has zero building codes. IBC or otherwise.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

My county has zero building codes. IBC or otherwise.

Since you don't say where you live, I can't verify that but I doubt it's correct. Other than single family residences, I didn't think there were any jurisdictions anywhere in the U.S. that didn't adopt some version of the IBC at least ten or fifteen years ago.

https://www.buildingsguide.com/blog/resources-building-codes-state/

Even if you may be in a jurisdiction that doesn't have a code, any architect who designs a school is going to follow the IBC anyway, because that's the standard of care for designing buildings and if he doesn't at least meet minimum code requirements he would be leaving himself wide open to a lawsuit for professional negligence ... and if he didn't adhere to the standard of care, his insurance company would drop him like a hot potato.

From the ICC web site:

The International Building Code (IBC) is in use or adopted in 50 states, the District of Columbia, Guam, Northern Marianas Islands, NYC, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico.

https://www.iccsafe.org/about-icc/overview/international-code-adoptions/

I note that it says "in use or adopted," so there may indeed by isolated jurisdictions where the IBC isn't law. Nonetheless, an architect designing a school would be crazy not to follow it.

 

[rickyrick]

I lived in a place with no building codes. For a while, I lived on two acres in town. I was poor at the time so I built my house out of 100% used materials. The whole set up cost me $500. A few years later I bought the remainder of the property on my street for $3000. About ten years ago I signed an oil lease and was getting $800-1500 a month in royalties up until I divorced. All in all, I lived there a good while. I built all kinds of things there, never once was the city involved and I never even needed a permit.

 

[44 AMP]

While a sort of interesting topic, fires in schools is not gunfire in schools, we're way off topic now, and so, this one is done.