Terminology debate...SA/DA and the realities of LDA
- Thread starter Playboypenguin
- Start date
HammerBite
New member
He really said that here.Tamara said:
The link was in another LDA thread on TFL, and I expressed my surprise that Larry would say such a thing without first opening up an LDA gun or doing some research.
This situation hasn't been helped any by gunrag writers who, speaking of the LDA system, have babbled about "outer hammers" and "inner hammers." This stuff has been propagated all over the internet.
HammerBite,
Holy *&^%!
I mean, I suppose you could call the cam an "internal hammer", but it still has to shove the external hammer forward to fire the gun.
I'm a little disappointed with Larry, there. I mean, the LDA is largely the same in operation as his own LWS conversions, and he knows damn good and well what strikes the firing pin in those.
There's gonna be some pointing and laughing at Larry's choice of words by the time I get done with my emailing this morning.
Holy *&^%!
I mean, I suppose you could call the cam an "internal hammer", but it still has to shove the external hammer forward to fire the gun.
I'm a little disappointed with Larry, there. I mean, the LDA is largely the same in operation as his own LWS conversions, and he knows damn good and well what strikes the firing pin in those.
There's gonna be some pointing and laughing at Larry's choice of words by the time I get done with my emailing this morning.
hoplophile
New member
The external "hammer" has the role of a sear trip and a transfer bar. All of the energy for cartridge detonation is provided by the cocked internal hammer.
"Transfer Bar" I can see. (Although conventional terminology calls the pivoting thing on a gun that whacks the firing pin a "hammer".)
However the wording of that post has obviously led many to the erroneous conclusion that the external hammer is not involved in the firing process at all.
(And is there a lower limit to its mass at which point ignition becomes unreliable? Is the "Warp Speed" C&S hammer on my Sistema just a 'transfer bar' that transfers energy from the mainspring cap to the firing pin?)
However the wording of that post has obviously led many to the erroneous conclusion that the external hammer is not involved in the firing process at all.
(And is there a lower limit to its mass at which point ignition becomes unreliable? Is the "Warp Speed" C&S hammer on my Sistema just a 'transfer bar' that transfers energy from the mainspring cap to the firing pin?)
HammerBite
New member
See 
.
The firing pin (9) lives inside the 1911-type slide (48). The firing pin is an inertial type, as attested by spring (11) which pushes from the front. The only access to the firing pin is where its back end pokes out through the firing pin stop (12).
The strut (22) is pinned into the cocking cam (56) by pin (23). The strut is powered by the mainspring (30).
The cocking cam/strut assembly fits into the slot in the hammer (20).
The cocking cam is what gets cocked against the mainspring tension. Meanwhile the hammer is biased in a forward position by the light spring (57).
When you pull the trigger the hammer is drawn back and the sear releases the cocking cam, which rotates forward under the impetus of the mainspring, taking the hammer with it. The hammer hits the firing pin, just like in a 1911.
Why is this so difficult? What's in the picture is what's in the gun. There is nothing else.
.The firing pin (9) lives inside the 1911-type slide (48). The firing pin is an inertial type, as attested by spring (11) which pushes from the front. The only access to the firing pin is where its back end pokes out through the firing pin stop (12).
The strut (22) is pinned into the cocking cam (56) by pin (23). The strut is powered by the mainspring (30).
The cocking cam/strut assembly fits into the slot in the hammer (20).
The cocking cam is what gets cocked against the mainspring tension. Meanwhile the hammer is biased in a forward position by the light spring (57).
When you pull the trigger the hammer is drawn back and the sear releases the cocking cam, which rotates forward under the impetus of the mainspring, taking the hammer with it. The hammer hits the firing pin, just like in a 1911.
Why is this so difficult? What's in the picture is what's in the gun. There is nothing else.
Come to think of it...
...it would probably be better and more illustrative to the non-gun-savvy to refer to it as a "two-piece hammer", hoplophile. The "internal" and "external" talk confuses them. When you say "internal hammer", they're thinking S&W 442 or Colt 1903.
...it would probably be better and more illustrative to the non-gun-savvy to refer to it as a "two-piece hammer", hoplophile. The "internal" and "external" talk confuses them. When you say "internal hammer", they're thinking S&W 442 or Colt 1903.
HammerBite
New member
Like I said, the gunrag writers have babbled about an "internal hammer" that doesn't exist.
Jim Watson
New member
Nomenclature aside, all I know about the P-O LDA is:
The first one I ever saw at an IDPA Nationals abruptly quit working in the middle of the match. The P-O rep fixed it for the owner to shoot the next day but it would have been tough had the targets been shooting back. Which was a real possibility, the owner was L.E. and had it for a duty gun.
At that same IDPA Nats, I literally could not make the sample gun at the demonstration range go off twice in a row. Insert magazine, rack slide, stroke trigger, bang. Stroke trigger, nada. Repeat, repeat. Others in my squad had no trouble with it but I could demonstrate my inability on demand. I tried all sorts of exaggerated trigger control, but could not make it go off twice in a row.
My gunsmith thinks they are horribly complicated and hates to work on one.
I don't think Todd Jarrett is shooting an LDA any more. I know he did not use one for his 1000 rounds in 10 minutes 44 seconds demo.
Silly gimmick. If you don't want a cocked hammer, get a gun designed that way and don't muck up a perfectly good 1911.
The first one I ever saw at an IDPA Nationals abruptly quit working in the middle of the match. The P-O rep fixed it for the owner to shoot the next day but it would have been tough had the targets been shooting back. Which was a real possibility, the owner was L.E. and had it for a duty gun.
At that same IDPA Nats, I literally could not make the sample gun at the demonstration range go off twice in a row. Insert magazine, rack slide, stroke trigger, bang. Stroke trigger, nada. Repeat, repeat. Others in my squad had no trouble with it but I could demonstrate my inability on demand. I tried all sorts of exaggerated trigger control, but could not make it go off twice in a row.
My gunsmith thinks they are horribly complicated and hates to work on one.
I don't think Todd Jarrett is shooting an LDA any more. I know he did not use one for his 1000 rounds in 10 minutes 44 seconds demo.
Silly gimmick. If you don't want a cocked hammer, get a gun designed that way and don't muck up a perfectly good 1911.
hoplophile
New member
If someone is building a piece of furniture and they use a punch to drive a nail into a piece of wood below the sanded surface, would the punch be considered part of a two piece hammer? While the thing we call the hammer delivers the blow only the punch contacts the nail. The punch by itself does nothing.
Using LDA logic on the definition of double action the firing pin that delivers the blow that causes detonation should perhaps be referred to as a third hammer. The first hammer is cocked when the slide is retracted. Energy is transferred to the second hammer when the trigger is pulled. This energy is then transferred to the third hammer which strikes the primer.
Nothing happens unless the first hammer is cocked by retracting the slide.
If instead of looking like a hammer and having the movements of a hammer the second hammer moved up and down like a transfer bar, few would think of it as a hammer. No one thinks of a firing pin as a hammer.
It's a brilliant design.
Using LDA logic on the definition of double action the firing pin that delivers the blow that causes detonation should perhaps be referred to as a third hammer. The first hammer is cocked when the slide is retracted. Energy is transferred to the second hammer when the trigger is pulled. This energy is then transferred to the third hammer which strikes the primer.
Nothing happens unless the first hammer is cocked by retracting the slide.
If instead of looking like a hammer and having the movements of a hammer the second hammer moved up and down like a transfer bar, few would think of it as a hammer. No one thinks of a firing pin as a hammer.
It's a brilliant design.
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...and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
That's because it doesn't rotate and strike another firing pin. If it did, it would probably be called a hammer.
I'm going to start referring to my 1911's hammer strut as the "hammer" and the hammer as the "transfer bar"...
hoplophile
New member
Actually, while the transfer bar moves mostly up and down it still has to rotate when struck in order to get the firing pin to move.
Iver Johnson promoted their Safety Automatic Revolver with the slogan "Hammer the Hammer," the hammer being hammered in this case being the transfer bar. Unlike on the Iver, the Para LDA has a transfer bar that is visible, looks like a hammer, and also acts as a sear trip. A sear, by the way, is defined by Merriam as "the catch that holds the hammer of a gun's lock at cock or half cock." The LDA has a sear. This sear holds an internal hammer at full cock position. The trigger cannot cock this internal hammer. Slide retraction cocks this internal hammer. The pistol cannot be fired if the internal hammer is not cocked. How is a pistol with a hammer held at full cock by a sear double action?
Iver Johnson advertised their revolvers as hammerless at the same time they were using the "Hammer the Hammer" phrase. The revolver was called hammerless because the hammer was shrouded and not visible. Confusing.
Iver also called the pistol automatic because of the way empty shells could be ejected. Again confusing.
There has to be a new and better way to define actions.
Iver Johnson promoted their Safety Automatic Revolver with the slogan "Hammer the Hammer," the hammer being hammered in this case being the transfer bar. Unlike on the Iver, the Para LDA has a transfer bar that is visible, looks like a hammer, and also acts as a sear trip. A sear, by the way, is defined by Merriam as "the catch that holds the hammer of a gun's lock at cock or half cock." The LDA has a sear. This sear holds an internal hammer at full cock position. The trigger cannot cock this internal hammer. Slide retraction cocks this internal hammer. The pistol cannot be fired if the internal hammer is not cocked. How is a pistol with a hammer held at full cock by a sear double action?
Iver Johnson advertised their revolvers as hammerless at the same time they were using the "Hammer the Hammer" phrase. The revolver was called hammerless because the hammer was shrouded and not visible. Confusing.
Iver also called the pistol automatic because of the way empty shells could be ejected. Again confusing.
There has to be a new and better way to define actions.
Oh, I'm far more familiar with the LDA's internals than I'd like to be, believe me.
You'll get no argument from me on that one. Back on page one of this thread I said that the LDA was no more "Double Action" than a Ruger Blackhawk.
Yup. The old "DA" and "SA" fail to describe probably a quarter of the newer designs out there.
(Although I haven't sat down and compared one side by side with one of the DA 1911 conversions by that gunsmith guy, it seems that they tapdanced right up to the line in the patent department...)
You'll get no argument from me on that one. Back on page one of this thread I said that the LDA was no more "Double Action" than a Ruger Blackhawk.
Yup. The old "DA" and "SA" fail to describe probably a quarter of the newer designs out there.
(Although I haven't sat down and compared one side by side with one of the DA 1911 conversions by that gunsmith guy, it seems that they tapdanced right up to the line in the patent department...)
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hoplophile
New member
As I understand them, I don't see any similarity between the Seecamp and the LDA. I think they are both unique designs.
The Seecamp D-A will drive the firing pin forward with each pull of the trigger. The LDA will only drive the firing pin forward through a pull of the trigger if the internal hammer has already been cocked by retracting the slide.
This whole discussion seems to revolve around semantics. I think minds would meet over a coffee or beer regarding the main points.
Playboypenguin
Moderator
Can I just have a Pepsi? I do not drink coffee or beer.
Officer's Match
New member
hoplophile
New member
Let me amend that to "I think minds would meet over a coffee or beer or Pepsi regarding the main points."
Playboypenguin
Moderator
That's better.
http://www.m1911.org/technic32.htm
Above is a good description of the P-O LDA trigger-with pictures!
It's from this site: http://www.m1911.org/technic.htm
I would refer to the two parts in question as the upper hammer and lower hammer. Though the lower seems more like a cam to me. I guess all hammers kind of are cams, aren't they?
As to the nomenclature question, how about referring to these actions as "One and a Half Action" (or "1.5/A"? They're more than single action because pulling the trigger at least partially cocks the firing mechanism. They're less than double action because the trigger cannot completely cock and fire the gun by itself; it needs the cycling of the slide to start the process.
Above is a good description of the P-O LDA trigger-with pictures!
It's from this site: http://www.m1911.org/technic.htm
I would refer to the two parts in question as the upper hammer and lower hammer. Though the lower seems more like a cam to me. I guess all hammers kind of are cams, aren't they?
As to the nomenclature question, how about referring to these actions as "One and a Half Action" (or "1.5/A"? They're more than single action because pulling the trigger at least partially cocks the firing mechanism. They're less than double action because the trigger cannot completely cock and fire the gun by itself; it needs the cycling of the slide to start the process.