Tempted by an old 1911

[spacecoast]

My local (trusted by me) gun shop has a beautiful old (1918) model 1911 that is in pristine condition, at least 95%. All the lettering is very strong, and it's stamped United States Property. The magazine has a lanyard loop and the counter guy I talked to said that while it's old, it may not be original (it's missing a stamped letter on the floor plate that he said would be there if it was original).

I couldn't take a picture of the gun, but it looks as good as this one -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205083477#PIC

It's been in the shop for months with a price tag of $2475. The guy I talked to said he could let it go for $1600.

Opinions? If I go back to check it out further, what should I look for? I'm not as familiar with 1911s as I should be, but I do value historic old pistols in original condition. I don't want to buy something for that much $$ that's not original, numbers don't match, etc. The magazine is a drawback, if not original, but that could be replaced.

 

[grumpa72]

For an M1911 with history like that, I would try this forum:

http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=81

I can almost guarantee that they will ask for photos and someone with chime in with something snappy like "without photos, it is like getting a haircut over the phone" or some other such statement. There are some real pros over there (here too I am sure).

Grumpa

 

[James K]

Colt magazines had no identifying maker's letter. Without pictures, any guess on value is a real WAG, but a 1918 M1911 in good original condition would be a steal at $1600.

FWIW, I am reasonably sure that the gun shown in that link does not have its original finish.

Jim

 

[RickB]

If it's original, that is, not refinished and no incorrect replacement parts, $1600 would be a steal . . . in fact, $2475 might be a steal! But, as noted above, good photos showing the overall condition and details of marking will help a lot in determining the value. Lanyard loop mags had been replaced by plain base mags before WWI, so even if the mag is not a reproduction, it's not "correct" for a 1918 pistol.

 

[James K]

A 1918 pistol might not have been sent from the factory with a lanyard loop magazine, but those magazines were issued through both wars and I had one in the arms room in 1957, correct or not.

Jim

 

[scottl]

Lots of old USGI info here.
http://forums.1911forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30

One thing I have learned while reading up on them is this.If you shoot you could be taking a risk with factory ammo.Some slides on the old warhorses have cracked.Could be from use and abuse previously or today's 45 acp is loaded to higher pressures.I don't know,just have read where the more knowledgable guys have given input.

I wold love to have one from either World War era.But I couldn't imagine ruining it with one shot either.

 

[spacecoast]

Thanks everyone, I did join m1911.org and did some more research last night. I saw a corroborating post on the lanyard loop RickB (stopped shipping stock with that loop in 1915), thanks for noting that.

In looking at the pictures it seems likely that the pistol at the shop has been refinished at some time in its life, although it didn't appear to be recently. As I recall the finish wasn't blue enough to have been an early 1918 model and wasn't worn or rough enough to be a Black Army pistol. It doesn't have a notable mark on it that I could see. Assuming everything else checks out, what would a high-quality refinishing do to the value of the pistol?

I'm going to go back and check it out more thoroughly, and ask them if I can field strip it. Presumably there is a serial # on the slide matching the frame, similar to my 1908 Hammerless .380? I know about the takedown mark and the replacing the original guide rod with a full length one, what else should I look for?

 

[RickB]

Guns of that vintage will not have serialed slides. Depending on the serial number range, there are things that you can look for that will tell you if the slide is "correct". If the serial number is below ~275,000, the prancing horse logo on the left side of the slide should be at the rear, and if the serial is closer to 300,000, the horsey should be in the middle. The contours of the "stirrup cuts" at the front of the slide were changed at about the same time, and you'll find all four configurations on guns made in that serial range. Check out http://www.coolgunsite.com/

 

[spacecoast]

The gun in question is serial # 441xxx, which makes it likely that it is a Black Army gun that has been refinished, although I don't know if it would be possible to prove whether it started out with the BA finish or not. It's a very nice refinish. The mag has a lanyard loop but is monotone so it may also have been refinished.

Anyone care to throw out a value estimate for a nicely refinished Colt 1911 from Oct. 1918?

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't normally play Internet Price is Right but the only way he would get $1600 out of me with it would be for him to load it and say "Stick 'em up!"

As the old time collector told me, "100% factory refinish is Zero ORIGINAL finish."

 

[RickB]

The metal in those old guns is relatively soft, so they don't even make good "shooters", and with the refinish there's little collector value (depends on what you're collecting), so those two factors would make the gun pretty undesireable in my eyes. Ten years ago, it would have been "a $500 gun", but I don't know if that part of the market really exists anymore. It might be worth more than $500, but when you can get a nice, new Springfield G.I. for about $600, I wouldn't put the value of the old Colt much higher than that.

 

[spacecoast]

Thanks RickB and Jim -

I didn't realize the refinish (if indeed it is refinished, which seems almost certain given its beautiful condition) would degrade the value that much, but I appreciate your honest feedback and insight. I'm going to have another look at it up close, but I'll be a little more thorough in my evaluation equipped with quite a bit more knowledge than I had a couple of days ago.

They have another 1911 from 1943 (serial # 1,18x,xxx as I recall) that does look original, moderate pitting and all. It's a consignment and they just got it, not much wiggle room (yet) on that one. It has a price of $1800 on it.

 

[Chris_B]

In regards to the 'blue' look of a 1918 manufactured pistol- Colt had reduced the number of polishing steps by then. A 1918 pistol will not really seem "blue", even on the trigger and thumb safety. It will seem black. Not to be confused with the "Black Army" finish, which was not a durable finish at all and was due to even further reduction of polishing steps. If you could tell us the s/n of the Model of 1911 in question, it can tell us if the pistol is a "Black Army" or not

I recommend Clawson's "Little book" Collector's Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911A1

I also recommended a C&R license if you don't have one

On the '43 pistol I'm not being a wiseass here-

is it an M1911A1 from 1943, or is it a Model of 1911 refinished for WWII?

I can't recommend M1911.org too strongly. They have some strict rules about posting though

 

[chris in va]

If I can't shoot a gun, it gets sold. Seems like an expensive paperweight to me.

Can you just imagine what sort of modern 1911 you could get for $1600?

 

[spacecoast]

is it an M1911A1 from 1943, or is it a Model of 1911 refinished for WWII?

Chris B -
Sorry for not being clear, the other pistol is an A1 from 1943.

I'll send you a PM with the full serial # of the first gun. I joined m1911.org and have done quite a bit of reading both there and at coolgunsite.com the last couple of days.

Can you just imagine what sort of modern 1911 you could get for $1600?

Understood. I could definitely rationalize a target gun (something like a Springfield Trophy Match?) or a similar match quality gun that would provide the 1911 experience as well as fill a required role in my bullseye shooting interest.

 

[spacecoast]

I went back to the shop today and had a much closer look at the 1918 gun (this time with reading glasses).

The finish is not perfect but has a few very light markings on it. I asked the guys behind the counter and they said some customers who have looked believe it's been refinished, some don't. The slide and receiver have what I believe is a very good brushed blue finish, it definitely isn't an original Black Army pistol, or has been refinished if it started out that way. The finish on the top of the slide looks more satiny than the sides of the slide and receiver. The mainspring housing is smooth (as it should be). The grips are the double-diamond design, I didn't think to count the number of rows of checkering between the diamonds.

The Rampant Colt is in the middle of the slide, consistent with the 441xxx serial number.

Markings
On the right side, in the space on the trigger guard beneath the trigger, there is a circled S. At the same spot on the left side is the number 53. Also on the left side is the Springfield "Eagle's Head" inspection mark with S12 beneath it. Does that mean it's a Colt slide on a Springfield frame?

I don't believe the barrel is original - it is marked Colt .45 Auto, no signs of the H or P markings that you would expect. The barrel is blued and the inside of the barrel appears to be blued as well.

As noted previously, the magazine has a lanyard loop and appears to be refinished since it's a monotone brownish-green, definitely a different tone than the rest of the pistol.

 

[Chris_B]

Eagle's Head is not Springfield-specific, and Eagle Head/S12 has been documented on Colt produced Models of 1911 roughly from May 1918 to April 1919

My Model of 1911 is 295XXX and has been decoded as 1918. I have the "JMG in a circle" monogram which ceased somewhere around 302XXX, and the date that ceased was late March 1918. The next stamp listed in my reference for Colts is the Eagle Head, of which there are two types. One with a 'closed' beak and one with an 'open' beak. The pistol you're looking at should not to my knowledge have an 'open' beak. The 'open' beak has an oval shape for the 'open' part of the beak and a vaguely oval eye. The 'closed' beak should have just a line for an eye

The barrel you describe is at oldest WWII production. S/Ns in that pistol's range should have an 'interlaced HP" on the shroud

If you could take pictures...get pics of the mag catch lock on the 'screw head' side. pics of the front of the slide, on the side where the contour is, the hammer, and the thumb safety

 

[spacecoast]

Chris B -

Thanks again for the additional explanation. From the facsimile of the Eagle's Head that I made at the shop, it appears to be a closed beak to me.

Even though it's a beautiful piece, with the finish/refinish uncertainty, the magazine not looking original, and the barrel being much later as well, it would be hard to justify a purchase as a collectible gun for what they are asking. Maybe that's why it's been at the shop such a long time.

I do appreciate the assistance from everyone.

 

[Winchester_73]

If I can't shoot a gun, it gets sold. Seems like an expensive paperweight to me.

Can you just imagine what sort of modern 1911 you could get for $1600?

Obviously spacecoast isn't buying this to see what kind of groups he gets at 15 yds. Its an investment, and a collector's item, sure to rise in value if the finish is original.

Perhaps this will help: my friend bought a 1911 from approx 1918 that he and many others say has the original finish, here is a pic. He paid $2500 and considers it a great deal btw.

 

[Chris_B]

Hi Win!

Your friend has a beautiful Colt

I am not a world-class authority on these pistols but I do know a little bit.

There are two types of finishes for 1918, one was poor and didn't adhere well, the so-called "black army' finish. Without knowing your friend's s/n range but with seeing the beautiful finish on the pistol in the photo, I would venture to guess that this is not a 'black army' pistol

The inspector stamp appears to be the "JMG in a circle' monogram type which would make the frame 1917 or 1918, which dovetails with the pistol probably not being 'black army'

However, the Rampant Colt at the rear of the slide, plus the shape of the recoil spring housing contour make the slide appear, at least in this photo, to be from an earlier pistol

If the slide is in fact from an earlier pistol, it is my opinion that the slide and frame match in finish much too well for the finish to be original. These are the things you need to watch for on these old examples that saw so many changes here there and everywhere

Regardless, I do not consider the price he paid to have been too bad. I would not have paid it, because the pistol itself is too nice and that's not what I'm after right now. Refinishes do have their place. Colt itself will even re-roll correct stamps during a refinish for Models of 1911

I do not, incidentally, want to appear to be bashing your friend's pistol. I am only commenting on what I thnk I see at that photo's angle, and I am only an informed amateur