Tell us again why Boy Scouts should allow gay leaders

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labgrade

Member In Memoriam
Neither of the above posts have anything to do with the issue.

Like I've said before, it's very simple (unless you must cram your agenda - whatever that may be, whether gun control, gay rights, straights rights or anything else that makes some group out to be "more special" than any other) ....

First Amendment does recognise (read = doesn't grant - it recognises the right to, w/out any government intervention in that "congress shall make no laws .... ") freedom of association and freedom of speech.

Anybody gets to associate with whom they so choose & if you don't like it, you get to bitch.

But, your bitching doesn't mean I (rhetorically speaking) have to care one stinking bit, or do anything about it.

Nor should it.
 

proximo

Moderator
Many pedophiles who prey on young boys are married and often have children of their own. Go figure.

Personally, I wouldn't be too worried about openly gay men who want to be scout leaders. You may not think they are appropriate because of their lifestyle, but the chances are excellent that the kids are safe in their hands. Its kind of like CCW holders. Those who openly apply for permits aren't the bad guys. Its the one's sneaking around you have to be worried about...

I'm in agreement, though, that the Boy Scouts have the right to choose who they want to associate with and those who are bothered by that should get over it. Nothing in the Constitution says a private organization has to accept anyone into their fold.

[This message has been edited by proximo (edited August 30, 2000).]
 

ctdonath

New member
Any man who sodomizes boys IS gay.

The rate of pedophiliac gays is high enough, and the crime is serious enough, that it is not unreasonable to raise grave concerns about vocal members of a minority that is defined by immoral behavior which is directly contrary to the principles of the organization which has the right to exercise freedom of association.

What this all has to do with guns, however, I'm not sure...though some pedophile may find such a connection the hard way (as many rapists have).
 

Ed Brunner

New member
I am 64 years old. When I was a child, my father wouldnt let me be a Boy Scout. He said all the scout leaders were communists and/or homosexuals.
He was wrong about a lot of things, but there are a lot of stories coming out concerning sodomy of boy scouts and altar boys.
Makes you wonder...

A lot of our problem is that we Americans have chosen to allow behavior choices to be classified as diseases which dignifies the subject as being a victim requiring treatment rather than punishment.

Since we are on the subject of pedophiles, I read somewhere that that there appears to be no cure for the disease. So do they have to be locked up forever or executed or what?

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 

oberkommando

New member
Ed I like you and your old man. Those communist heathens are still around.

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The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

Do you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. We're after power and we mean it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breakings laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law breakers--and then you cash in on guilt.

A RAND

Some Problems require an LGM-118A Solution.
 

EnochGale

New member
Don't Let Police Be Heterosexual!!!

Action Alert!!!

Read this:
http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/08/28/policesex0828_01.html

Cop Charged in Sex Assaults on 2 Girls

Such a stupid thread.

Listen, when people argue against guns, you argue it is a tool and it is the specific person that should be blamed.

However, when your homophobia (said deliberately) operates, you blame a class of folks and not the individual.

That is not logical.

Many more young girls are assaulted by men.
Thus, heterosexual males should not be school teachers, etc. that bring them into contact with young girls. That is your logic.

Since this is illogical, your real motivation is prejudice. Not worthy of a group that supposedly values civil liberties.

Sometimes, for some of you, I think the only civil liberty you value is playing with your 1911.

Rather strong and I have argued that we just don't do the gay, ethnic bashing threads.

But if we do - you need to be told.
 

duck hunt

New member
<<Malcomb's wife turned her husband in when she found him molesting a 12-year-old boy in their home.>>

Comparing this sicko to a well-adjusted, out-of-the-closet gay man who wants to be a scout leader is like apples and oranges.

Yes, there are homosexual pedophiles, but being a homosexual does not automatically make one a pedophile. I work with pedophiles, it's what I do, listen to me here because I think I know what I'm talking about.

I wish homophobes would quit using pedophiles as tools of gay-bashing when they are two totally unrelated topics -- just like a few months ago here when someone brought up that guy who wants to euthanize severely handicapped infants and called it "post-birth abortion."

Letting gays lead scout troops is one thing. Letting pedophiles do the same is another topic entirely.

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*quack*
 

Christopher II

New member
Sigh.

labgrade - you're right. I didn't mention the free-association clause because it's been discussed around here so often, I figured it would be rather obvious. The BSA, like any other private organization, can set whatever membership requirements they want. No problem there.

Sheesh. If I continue in this vein, it's gonna get long. I'll shut up now.

Later,
Chris
 

Jack M

New member
Should the issue really have anything to do with homosexuality? IF the Boy Scouts are a private organization, I feel they shpould be able to exclude gays. The courts, however, recognize a number of grey areas (forming business contacts, etc) but let's leave those aside for a moment. The Boy Scouts need to stop feeding at the public trough if they want to claim exemptions from government equal opportunity standards. To me it is that simple, if you accept govenment money, if you rent public parks for $1 a year, then you are NOT a private organization. If you don't want gay scout leaders, donate cash to the Scouts, so they can quit taking government handouts, and THEN I feel they have a right to exclude gays on religious grounds, if they choose.
 

scud

New member
I pay taxes, I support the Boy Scouts so why exactly should they not be allowed grants etc.? By the logic of if they don't accept gays no money, then if there was only one homosexual alive today he would basically have control over all of the resources and money form every other person alive. If only homosexuals and their supporters to have access to .gov help and lands then only homosexuals should pay taxes. Why should I have to pay for the Boy Scouts to be descriminated against based on their right to assemble and expression of freedom of religion ?

[This message has been edited by scud (edited August 30, 2000).]
 

tuc22

New member
Heard this on Conan O'Brian regarding gay scout leaders: Who else but a gay man would know how to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together?
 

Matt VDW

New member
Duck hunt, if you were the leader of the Boy Scouts, what steps would you take to keep pedophiles from becoming scoutmasters?
 

John/az2

New member
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_bresnahan/20000830_xnbre_boy_scouts.shtml

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Boy Scouts must defend
against 'sexual predators'
While some decry no-homosexual policy,
judge says BSA didn't protect abuse victim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By David M. Bresnahan
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com


While under attack by homosexual activist groups, the ACLU, United Way chapters and even corporate and governmental bodies for its policies prohibiting homosexuals, the Boy Scouts of America is now being assailed from the exact opposite direction -- with legal charges that it hasn't done enough to protect scouts from sexual predators.

Indeed, even though BSA is struggling to keep the two thorny issues officially separate -- its policy of not admitting homosexuals as leaders or Scouts, and its educational efforts aimed at preventing sexual molestation of Scouts -- a federal judge has tied the two issues together by saying BSA should fully expect that scouting will attract pedophiles.

For the record, Boy Scouts of America officials insist the policy on homosexuals -- recently validated by the U.S. Supreme Court -- has nothing to do with efforts to prevent molestation of Boy Scouts.

"We treat them as two separate issues," explained Greg Shields, BSA spokesman.

However, Boy Scouts of America is named in a civil suit involving molestation of a scout, even though the troop involved did not obey BSA policies and rules. Although BSA has a comprehensive child sexual abuse prevention and awareness program -- that was ignored by the troop -- the attorney for the plaintiff claims BSA should have forced the troop to comply.

"We're going to be seeking millions of dollars against the Boy Scouts because they knew better," attorney Charles A. Bonner told the San Diego Union-Tribune. Bonner filed the case for his client, Mario Juarez, who was molested by his assistant scoutmaster, Jorge Paz, in 1990.

Bonner said BSA national leaders know that "the organization attracts pedophiles like a magnet attracts metal."

Child sexual molestation is more than three times more common among homosexuals than among heterosexuals, according to the report, "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children" in "The Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy," number 1 for 1992.

Despite the many cases of scout molestation over the years at the hands of predatory scout leaders, Shields doesn't attempt to tie the two issues together.

"Anyone can be a child molester," he said. Homosexuals are denied participation because they live contrary to the Scout Oath and Law, he explained. Boy Scouts take an oath that they will be "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

The U.S. Supreme Court case confirmed that the BSA is a private organization that can limit membership to anyone. Homosexual activist organizations are engaged in a nationwide campaign to pressure the 90-year-old scouting organization to change that policy. In addition, many organizations and government entities -- persuaded that BSA is engaging in unfair discrimination against homosexuals -- are now attacking the organization financially, with some United Way chapters pulling their funding, for instance.

Meanwhile, Paz is now serving a 14-year sentence at San Quentin State Prison for repeatedly molesting Juarez and nine other boys in 1990 in Troop 225 of Oakland, Calif.

Juarez, now an adult living in San Leandro, Calif., claims the Boy Scouts of America did not do enough to protect him. Even though BSA has an extensive program to teach boys, parents and leaders about child molestation, Juarez claims the training was not used in his troop and BSA did nothing about it.

The BSA child sexual abuse prevention program includes a video, booklet and training classes for leaders, parents and boys. The program teaches that anyone can be a child molester and boys are taught the three Rs -- recognize, resist and report.

A basic set of rules goes a long way to preventing problems in scout troops, according to Shields.

"There's a common thread in these molestation cases," explained Shields. "They don't follow the rules."

The rules require that at least two adults are always present -- "two-deep leadership" -- and that adults do not sleep in the same tent or cabin with boys. Most child molesters break those rules, said Shields.

He added that BSA shouldn't be held accountable for leaders who do not attend the training and do not follow the rules.


Yet, the First District Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled that the case should move forward, since "it should be reasonably foreseeable to the Scouts that a child participating in Scouting might fall prey to a sexual predator," said Justice Ignazio Ruvolo.

The current BSA training program began in 1988. There were 169 scout leaders dropped for child molestation in 1987, which increased to 209 in 1989 after the training began -- an increase BSA has attributed to greater awareness as a result of the training.

Shields said the total number of child molesters thrown out of the BSA is only a very small percentage of the 1.2 million adult leaders. He did not have current figures.

Juarez blames BSA for the abuse he suffered and claims that if he had received the training he would have known how to recognize the problem and resist the approaches of Paz.

Paz violated BSA rules when he failed to participate in the training and failed to provide the materials to boys and parents. He frequently took boys to activities without a second adult present and he also slept in the same tent with boys, according to Juarez's lawsuit.

Recently, a professional staff administrator for the BSA office in San Diego, Calif., was arrested for molesting a large number of Boy Scouts between 1997 and 1999. Glenn Jordan has been charged with 33 counts of child molestation so far, and prosecutors say the investigation is still under way, with more charges expected.

Robert Malcomb, Jr., a former scoutmaster in Oklahoma, pleaded guilty on Friday to 61 charges of having had sex with five boys under the age of 14, as well as multiple counts of rape, forcible oral sodomy, lewd acts with children and bestiality. His wife turned him in after she caught him molesting a 12-year-old boy in their home. Malcomb had been a scout leader since 1992.

There have been similar cases in Louisiana and Oregon.

Shields said the Boy Scouts of America -- which is a major part of the lives of 5 million youths and 1.2 million adults -- would continue to say no to homosexuals, and also continue to insist that scout leaders follow all the rules to prevent child sexual abuse.

[/quote]

[emphasis mine]

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
"Scout leaders were communists..."

Wow... That's a new one on me. I went through nearly 15 years of Scouts, starting in the Cubs and up through Boy Scouts, with a stint as a leader afterwards.

Scouts (and my leaders) taught me:

1. Personal responsibility.

2. Riflery and shotgun shooting.

3. How to cook over a camp fire (ok, ok, but I liked it!)

4. First aid.

5. How to be a better citizen.

6. How to think for myself.

7. Scouts also reinforced my respect for, and belief in, a God who is greater than myself.

With the exception of points 3 and 4, what the Scouts taught me is poison to the ultra-Liberals/Communists who are working hard to decide what is PC in this country.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 

John/az2

New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ed Brunner:

Since we are on the subject of pedophiles, I read somewhere that that there appears to be no cure for the disease. So do they have to be locked up forever or executed or what?

[/quote]

Hmmm... How about hopilphobes (sp?).

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 

Jack M

New member
scud, for the same reason that you cannot exclude Blacks or women if you take government money. If you use public funds, you get public rules. They are more than welcome to grants, etc. The acceptance of those monies eliminates the "private organization" arguement, IMHO.
 

David Blinder

New member
I'm going to step out on my right wing here and state that there is no room in scouting for homosexuals, PERIOD. I earned my Eagle Scout rank over 20 years ago and it's still something that I'm proud of. When I perform interviews for job applicants, I give more credence to an Eagle Scout than I do for an Ivy League MBA as it shows dedication and perserverance at a young age. Scouting was formed to teach boys honorable traits and I don't recall a "deviant" merit badge. The homosexual community has done a wonderful public relations job on being accepted as "mainstream & normal" but I don't buy it. The reason they euphemistically refer to themselves as "gay" is because it sounds less offensive than homosexual, queer,etc. Are there bad apples in scouting? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it should be condoned or accepted. They do have the right to conduct their lives as they choose but they don't have the right to infringe on how I choose to live, or to influence young minds that their way of life is normal. IMO, any adult caught harming or molesting children, whether scouting or not, should be subjected to the worst punishment imaginable. Sorry about the rant and if I have offended anyone, I will consider this a good day.
 
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