Study on the 223 vs. can you shoot debate?

johnsonrlp

New member
The Army doesn't send us to the range enough, period. After they got back the 507th was re-organized as E company 5/52 ADA. I happen to be in the same Battalion. Every six months (hopefully) we go to the range. Usually the battalion gets a week and we try to run everybody through. To quallify with the m16/m4 you have to hit 23 out of 40, twenty from foxhole (like we still fight out of trenches and foxholes), twenty from prone. From 50 to 300 meters. Usually by the end of the day the magazines magically have 30 each instead of 20. One time, the range commander actually told the ammo detail to give everyone sixty rounds to quallify. Two people still came back because they couldn't hit 23 out of sixty. A lot of times people will be quallified by the person in the next lane.
I doubt we'll be going to the range again soon though, they just froze all government credit cards and budgets in the brigade and took all the government vehicles. We're to broke to go to the range. Well, I go at least twice a month.
 

garryc

New member
My nephew came back from army basic about a yaer and a half ago. He asked me to coach him on his shooting. My intent was to drill him on sight picture, trigger control and positions. I took my 22 target rifle and a reciever sighted Mauser. He would not go because he said, "That's not the way we shoot!" It seems to me that the army spent very little time on the basics. The nation of riflemen is no more!!
I think it would be a good idea for all these gun clubs to run clinics teaching men about to enlist the fundimentals. And do it for free
 

5whiskey

New member
The term "small arm" or "small arms" refers to a weapon easily carried and used by an individual. That would included rifles and pistols of any caliber as opposed to crew-served weapons, weapons mounted on machinery, towed guns, bombs, etc.

Actually, small arm today is considered .50 bmg and under. You are partly correct, because most will argue that a .50 sniper rifle (SASR) is man portable. You know what your talking about, but we don't want to confuse the ones that think a 240G mounted on a humvee is NOT small arms... IT IS.

Anyhoo... I've stayed away from this one because this is about the 7th "is 5.56 good enough for our military" thread. They're almost predictible, because everyone I see settles on shot placement. Then the shot placement post is touted a bit later on the accuracy of our troops and how little marksmanship training they get. And then that turns into people trying to solve everything that is wrong with the military...

I'm sure most of you know that we have 5.56 for a reason. It is an assault rifle cartridge. An assault rifle is designed to be a small and lightweight, man-operable, close to intermmidiate range rifle that allows reasonably controllable full-auto fire from ANY shooting position. 7.62 is an awesome round with excellent terminal ballistics. There are very few cases that someone takes a few 7.62 rounds and doesn't die shortly thereafter. BUT... let's look at what 95% of 7.62 rounds are fired out of. A belt-fed weapon. Most of the time where one 7.62 goes at least 5 more follow, even during a fast traverse or search fire.

I would like to see something better than 5.56, simply because I know we have the technology to make it happen. I think the 6.8 program WAS going in the right direction, but one of many reasons why that didn't take is because the Marine Corps purchased quite a few new M16A4s about 2 years ago that are all chambered for 5.56. It would be a waste to not get the service life out of those rifles (to the military).

You can have a lightweight 7.62 rifle. Look at the AR10. But you will not be able to control full-auto fire. Now I'm just waiting for the guy, who I know will respond, that's going to say that he can fire 7.62 (I'm talking 7.62 NATO, not 7.62x39) on full auto just fine and hold his burst in a 2 foot circle at 200 yds standing. Whatever man, show me. Even if there are a few out there that could do it, that would be a very small percentage. Many new recruits don't have experiance with firearms before joining the military. I did, and thought I could shoot well but I still had to "learn" how to shoot full auto. It's much easier to train people with no experiance with the no recoil M16 than to train with a harder biting AR10. Would alot be fine with it? Yes, but not all.

One more thing to think of, while on the topic. If we went 7.62 the weapon would likely weigh at least %50 more. if that's just 4 extra pounds it sounds like small potatos. 7.62 rounds weigh in right at 3x more than 5.56. So if your carrying 300 rounds of 5.56 that equates to about 8 pounds. If you're carrying 300 rounds of 7.62 that's 21 pounds. If you think it's not a big deal then you go on a 6 hour foot patrol carrying 2 gallons of water, a flak with SAPI plates, 4 or 5 grenades of all sorts, a radio, map, compass, all serialized gear, helmet, poleless litter, AT-4s, ect. ect. ect. when it's 120 degrees.

5.56 isn't the perfect round by no means, but we have it for a reason. It does well enough. And by the way, any Marine victor unit (infantry battalion) scheduled to deploy to Iraq gets more rounds to train with than they can effectively use at times. We get quite a bit of trigger time, and I think that we can shoot pretty darn good. Does everyone learn to be a sniper at basic training? Well, no, of course. Point being, you get trigger time based on your job and deployment schedule. Why would we focus on everyone when there's only about 35% that actually patrol the mean streets. I'm not saying totally neglect all others, the insurgents might try and attack the chow hall at camp fallujah or something. Everyone should know how to basically shoot, but precedence should be given to the ones who SEEK, CLOSE WITH, AND DESTROY THE ENEMY THROUGH FIRE AND MANUEVER. Basically what I'm saying is it's the units responsibility to develope it's own shooting program. Going to the rifle range every year in not enough for infantry, but it is if you work on harriers.
 

garryc

New member
Point being, you get trigger time based on your job and deployment schedule.

I see your point, but my nephew is regular infantry. I still tell him, whenever he's in town, that he needs to learn to shoot one at a time and make them count.
 

SamD

New member
The official definition of "small arms" has nothing to do with portability and it's anything under 20mm for army types.

Military marksmanship training is a joke and has been for quite a while.
They are dead set against good shooters, that takes time, money and range availability. It also means that soem will be better than others and that is not currently acceptable.

Sam
 

5whiskey

New member
same principle... under 20mm or .50 bmg and under??? I can't think of anything in between at the moment.

62% of my battalion qualified expert (and no, that's not doctored and we don't do hook-ups) at the rifle range last time we went. I personally think we're rolling pretty deep. Now does the National Gaurd get enough? I'm sure they probably don't. I'm sure I'm going to touched with something like "well anything under 100% is unacceptable". We could completely disregard all theory of tactics, fire and manuever, radio call procedures, how to load a defense and do a fire plan sketch, geometry of fire concerns, how to clear rooms, how to clear buildings, how to call for fire, marking SOPs, patrolling, mounted patrolling, IA drills, first aid, combined arms, and all of the hundred other things we MUST know. We could skip all of this and focus on nothing but pulling the trigger for 6 months and we still wouldn't get 100% expert. Yes we incorporate the basics of marksmanship in all of this, but we can't get rifle range quality feedback while doing so.

Anyhoo, back to the point of the thread. Yes, .223 is effective for what it was designed for. Again I would like to see something better, but I know it's not happening tomorrow.
 

U.S.SFC_RET

New member
The challenge that the Army faces is to take the Generation X generation and make fighting, shooting soldiers out of them. Take a kid from an urban environment who's never handled a weapon and it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to unlearn and teach this kid not only how to shoot right but to get his mind right in the process. Sometimes it can take years. Sometimes never. he might be able to "qualify" but you have to qualify his mind as well. He has to get comfortable and confident with that weapon in times of stress and duress. It is hard to teach that at a range. That takes experience. WWI and WWII soldiers were known to come into the service from all over the map in this country and Marksmanship was highly valued back then. It isn't nearly so now. You still have servicemen coming in who value Marksmanship but not to the extent on the percentage scale.
 

5whiskey

New member
Take a kid from an urban environment who's never handled a weapon and it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to unlearn and teach this kid not only how to shoot right but to get his mind right in the process. Sometimes it can take years. Sometimes never. he might be able to "qualify" but you have to qualify his mind as well. He has to get comfortable and confident with that weapon in times of stress and duress.

An excellent point.

It is hard to teach that at a range. That takes experience

It's not hard to teach the above values you mentioned at a range, it's IMPOSSIBLE. As you have said only experiance will do it.

An excellent point all the way around. In the glory days of WWII there was a far greater percentage of people raised with what I guess you would call "blue collar values". Like how to fish, how to start a fire, how to shoot, how to tend a garden (or a farm), how to swing a hammer, ect. Mainly because people of the time weren't afforded the creature comforts of today, and they certainly didn't call a repairman to mend the fence for them (just an example) because they couldn't afford it. They had to do it themselves. We've lost alot of this as a nation since then.
 

pickpocket

New member
U.S.SFC_RET said:
The challenge that the Army faces is to take the Generation X generation and make fighting, shooting soldiers out of them.
Splash, over -

Sorry, brother - but I gotta chime in on this one. You make some excellent points, but you're dead wrong on this one.
The challenge that the Army faces has nothing to do with Gen X. I'm a Gen X-er and the kids I went to war with were just as hard as the guys from each and every war we've fought as a country.
The Army's "challenge" (hell, Marine Corps and Navy too...we just don't talk about the Air Force here) is to give the finger to Mothers Against America and to quit trying to be the "Newer, Kinder, Gentler Army".
The "challenge" is to take these kids and make them soldiers and Marines all with one hand tied behind your back and your feet tied together.
I saw it in the Marine Corps too - although not to the same extent. They're getting soft, my man...it's more about careers and political correctness than it is about winning wars.

Ok - sorry...

Rounds complete, over.
 

5whiskey

New member
The Army's "challenge" (hell, Marine Corps and Navy too...we just don't talk about the Air Force here) is to give the finger to Mothers Against America and to quit trying to be the "Newer, Kinder, Gentler Army".
The "challenge" is to take these kids and make them soldiers and Marines all with one hand tied behind your back and your feet tied together

yup.
 

MK11

New member
Every single 20th century war (even the Civil War) has seen fewer and fewer people familiar with shooting enter military service. This idea that WWII was fought by a bunch of flinty-eyed squirrel hunters is ridiculous. It's an old, OLD problem, and it won't be getting any better.
 

johnsonrlp

New member
BTW this problem of unfamiliarity with weapons would not be solved by handing out large caliber rifles. It's hard enough for some people to learn with the M16.
 
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