Study on the 223 vs. can you shoot debate?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060615-111752-3841r_page2.htm
Army ammo
The Army recently concluded a $3 million, three-year study to find out what it was told by a group of specialists years ago: The killing power of the M-16/M-4 carbine is good for close combat.
The Army study started after some soldiers in Afghanistan claimed that the 62-grain, 5.56 mm round did not have enough stopping power to kill terrorists in close combat. The complaints appeared aimed at trying to get the Army to adopt bigger caliber guns and ammo, something the service opposes.
According to defense officials close to the study, a group of assembled specialists on the matter, including both ballistics specialists and medical doctors familiar with bullet wounds, told the Army before it started the study that the problem is not the size of the bullet but the person pulling the trigger.
The specialists concluded that disabling an enemy combatant with an M-16 is more dependent on where a shot is placed, the number of hits that are placed on target, and the level of marksmanship training of the solider. The size of the bullet and its design are less important and the standard M855 ammunition, known as "green tip" ammo is fine.
The Army study concluded almost the same thing but failed to identify one fault of its own soldiers: They need more training to be better shots.
The study proved that the complaints from some units in Afghanistan were unwarranted. "There are some special operations units that never complained because they could shoot," one official told us. For those lacking marksmanship training, "they could shoot at someone 10 times but only hit him once or twice."
"The Army is very willing to spend a lot of money on guns and ammunition, but very little on marksmanship training," the official said.

 

[MK11]

I'm a big fan of the M4 and 5.56 but the quote "They could shoot at them 10 times and only hit them once or twice" is perplexing. Isn't the point that they should only need to hit them once or twice?

 

[pickpocket]

Hmm - so is it fair to say, that for those of us that have been saying this for years that the market value of our real-world experience is worth about $3 million?

Maybe I should change careers

Isn't the point that they should only need to hit them once or twice?

This is the case for ANY small caliber weapon - and by small I mean smaller than .50 cal. There's enough research in terminal ballistics to make that statement a non-issue.

 

[444]

The point is that they will TELL you that they shot the guy 10 times before he went down. In reality they SHOT 10 times, but only actually HIT him once or twice and he went down.

 

[DonR101395]

The biggest problem with the M855 which has a steel core was that it was passing through with a small wound channel. JSOC units starting using Black Hills 77gr ammunition and results improved greatly. I think I'll take the word of some of the worlds best combat shooters over a "study" no matter how much it costs. It's been a few years, but in the mid 90's each JSOC DA unit's yearly training ammo allotment was more than the entire Marine Corps training allotment. I will agree that most of the rest of the military could use more training time.

 

[threegun]

I heard that the problem was the added weight of the new round combined with the shorter barrel of the M-4. They said the new round couldn't achieve enough velocity to achieve maximum effectiveness from the shorter barrel.

 

[Denny Hansen]

I heard that the problem was the added weight of the new round combined with the shorter barrel of the M-4.

Don't know where you heard that. Black Hills' MK262Mod1 is doing nothing short of a superb job in terms of accuracy. It has also proven to be more lethal.

M855, with its penetrator, was developed during the cold war when we anticipated shooting bad guys wearing armor and/or in lightly armored vehicles. Times change, and the M855 is not effective against the unarmored bad guys of today as it zips right through them.

The issue load for SOCOM, the 77-grain MK262Mod1 is now available for general issue to troops if a unit commander requests it--and many are doing just that. Black Hills was recently awarded a contract for an additional five years to produce the load.

Denny

 

[Demon5Romeo]

I am in the Army, Infantry, and on my second tour here in Iraq. I have used the M4 extensively on my first tour and use it from time to time on this one. (I am a designated marksman and my primary weapon is a M-14). I have not had any problems with the M4 in terms of "stopping power" or reliablity. We use M855 62 gr. ball and it does cause very nasty wounds out to 200-250 meters. No complants here.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Thank you for your service, Demon5, and thanks for the info.

Love your sig line

Denny

 

[OneInTheChamber]

I have used the M4 extensively on my first tour and use it from time to time on this one. (I am a designated marksman and my primary weapon is a M-14). I have not had any problems with the M4 in terms of "stopping power" or reliablity. We use M855 62 gr. ball and it does cause very nasty wounds out to 200-250 meters. No complants here.
Today 08:51 AM

Beautiful. This is exactly what the Army needs to listen to. A designated marksman (someone who can actually shoot very well) has no complaints. Those who are complaining are also those with the least training and experience. Anyone else see the pattern here?

Thank you for your excellent service Demon5.

I also love that sig line; that's just priceless. Someone who actually can talk about the enemy as if he is, , an enemy. I hate it when we treat the enemy like he's just a misguided friend in need of counseling; in my opinionthe enemy is a blood thirsty foe in need of gunshot wounds.

 

[Ares45]

Ammo Oracle

Scan down and read about "Terminal Performance..."

 

[ddelange]

+1 to Ares45 for the reference to the Ammo Oracle site.

For FMJ bullet design, the M855 excels at its ability as a medium range bullet that will enter the enemy, fragment, and cause severe permanent wound cavities. It has slightly longer range accuracy than the original M193, which can cause even more severe wounds at close range, but lacks the extra range of the M855, and its ability to penetrate light armor. As long as the M855 stays above 2700fps when it enters an enemy COM, its wounding effects will be lethal.

 

[pickpocket]

True, some "give up" upon being hit anywhere but many do not.

I wish we could have imported those guys into my AO...

My experience has all been on the "not" side.

 

[Eghad]

I spent over 28 years in the Army Reserve. Some of those I spent as a marksmanship trainer for a MACOM. The emphasis on marksmanship was nil or very low. You had a few units that had good programs. The main problem was that most units spent one weekend before range fire on marksmanship,then one day to qualify. The basis for most commanders was quantity through the range not quality. When our unit was at the mobilization station out of 57 we had 1 qualify expert and that was me. My eyes were not the greatest in the world then, I was pretty shocked. I had a SSG from one of the active duty Cav units as my coach on the firing line. I guess it must be par for some Active Duty units because he was pretty amazed that an old fart like me could shoot that well or to see an old MSG Rolling around in the rain and mud with his troops on the firing line.

Some commanders just do not want to put the time into marksmanship training, kind of I am not infantry mentality. So why do we need to know how to shoot at an above minimum level. Those common tasks that every soldier should know are there for a reason. The 507th Maintenance Co. taught us that.

 

[JohnKSa]

The point is that they will TELL you that they shot the guy 10 times before he went down. In reality they SHOT 10 times, but only actually HIT him once or twice and he went down.

I'm reminded of one of Capstick's anecdotes. He was guiding a hunter on a dangerous game hunt. When they finally got into shooting position, the hunter took aim, and then worked the action, took aim again and repeated the cycle until the gun was empty.

...leaving a pile of unfired cartridges on the ground next to his gun. Capstick said that even with the unfired cartridges as evidence, it was difficult to convince the hunter that he had worked the bolt properly but had forgotten to pull the trigger.

If a man can forget to pull the trigger in a stressfull situation, it's not at all hard to believe that someone could forget how many times they shot, be mistaken about how many times they hit, or be confused about where their shots were hitting.

 

[guntotin_fool]

My best friend is over in Iraq right now, MD from the navy attached to the marines. He has seen several bg's show up at the hospital with multiple wounds from 5.56 and seen them survive. Most recent was a BG who received nine hits. seven in the torso. The hit that stopped the bg was a 5.56 hit to the femur which shattered and the man fell. He had severe damage to the braxial area of the shoulder with a T&T wound there, both lungs had T&T wounds. He had further hits to his kidney, spleen and intestines. He further stated that he had only had to treat one guy who had been shot with 7.62 x 51. He figured the rest had expired before getting on his operating table. He stated that the marines who are shot with the 7.62X 39 rounds have far more tissue damage than the bg's who come in shot by 5.55x45's

The Doc's comments were that the wounds from the 5.56 looked just like industrial accidents where someone had gotten a drill press and made long relatively benign holes thru the individual. Just what you would expect to find in game animals where a long high SD fmj projectile was used. Doc's statement was that five of the seven wounds would have led to death without competent medical care, but it did not stop him from fighting.


A former coworker who is now back from working over there as a construction specialist was working for a private firm. His personal weapon was a M4 that was loaded with commercial ammunition. He was only able to fire it really for familiarization and practice, but they used ammo loaded by one of the big three with Nosler 60gr. partitions. The people who were detailed to security for his group had several instances of being forced to use their weapons for defense and he never saw a BG take more than two hits before giving up the fight. He claims that on one guy who stepped out from behind a broken van to fire an RPG at them, that one shot from the lead SD person caused a traumatic amputation of the forearm. Bullets that expand do really well when fired at good velocity.

 

[Archie]

Back to basic principles...

No small arm round is effective if the shots miss.

A good, solid hit with a bigger gun is superior to a good, solid hit with a smaller gun.

Shooters are made, not born.

If our armed forces don't teach our combatants to shoot, who do you figure will?

 

[444]

"If our armed forces don't teach our combatants to shoot, who do you figure will?"

They don't. So you have to look elsewhere. Luckily there are plenty of good instructors around.
I frequently train at Frontsight outside Las Vegas NV. There are a lot of active duty Marines training there also. Most of them have combat experience and have been to Iraq at least once. They obviously feel that Frontsight has something to teach them.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No small arm round is effective if the shots miss.

Surely you don't mean to imply that a large round that misses will be effective?

 

[JohnKSa]

Surely you don't mean to imply that a large round that misses will be effective?

Indeed, he does not.

The term "small arm" or "small arms" refers to a weapon easily carried and used by an individual. That would included rifles and pistols of any caliber as opposed to crew-served weapons, weapons mounted on machinery, towed guns, bombs, etc.