Stopping a Terrorist Attack

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Deaf Smith

New member
* * * We also train gun offense/defense (and knife) and that is really interesting too. At around 20 ft, if you are carrying IWB or pocket there is no way for you to draw and fire if I charge and take you down. I will have you in side control/mounted before your gun is out. * * *
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That is incorrect information. The 'Tueller drill', which is where the 7 yard 'guestimation' comes from is false. It presumes certain things. 1) the attacker can move at a certain speed. 2) the defender can only draw at a certain speed and cannot move. 3) there is no 'tell', as in telegraph, of one's intentions, and 4) the attack happens in a vacuum (that is it just 'happens'.)

First off the attacker may not be able to run toward the defender quickly. Second the defender may be quite quick (you would be amazed how fast a 2 inch J .38 can be drawn from an appendix position IWB and FIRED FROM THE HIP). Also the defender might very well move obliquely to one side. And then as the altercation unfolds the defender, if trained, should be able to see signs the attacker is about to advance. Same goes for the defender going from condition 'yellow' to condition 'orange' as the attacker postures before the attack.

See in real life such attacks don't just happen out of the blue and unless the defender has his eyes glued to his cell phone will texting they will see it a-coming.

Deaf
 
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agtman

Moderator
* * * The 'Tueller drill', which is where the 7 yard 'guestimation' comes from is false. It presumes certain things. 1) the attacker can move at a certain speed. 2) the defender can only draw at a certain speed and cannot move. 3) there is no 'tell', as in telegraph, of one's intentions, and 4) the attack happens in a vacuum (that is it just 'happens'.)
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If you're referring to the "21-foot" rule (or now, as several LE firearms instructors have told me, the 30-foot), the primary assumption is none of those factors (1-4).

The primary assumption is based on the fear that once inside 21-ft (or, apparently as taught to police rookies now, inside 30-ft), an attacker charging an officer with an edged weapon will be able to kill or inflict a mortal (non-survivable) wound before the officer's gunfire can incapacitate him, at least short of a direct head-shot, which (per L.E. trainers) 99.9% of your average street cops will not be able to make under the stress, adrenaline rush, and quickness of the encounter (occurring in literal seconds).

That fear and the assumption, in turn, is drawn from case study after case study in which officers have been severely cut or killed with edged weapons, and the distances from which the attack began were measured, and then compared with the same data in other cases where the officer killed his attacker before he could reach the officer. It's about distance and reaction time.

And it's not just traditional knives, but other sharp metally things like field machetes, "Ninja"/Kung Fu swords, fireplace pokers, etc. It's from that historical data base, which L.E. instructors collect and study, that this theoretical "bright line" of 21-feet/30-feet is derived.

It's meant to be what it is - another training tool, following threat identification ("He's charging at me with a knife"), to enhance the officer's reaction time under stress, and hence his chances of survival.
 
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Deaf Smith

New member
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agtman

Moderator
Incorrect again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og28YV8DUxw
https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org...rill-revisited

Nothing to do with fear. It was to show how far one can be and still be a danger with a knife (or club, or actually any weapon) and measuring the reaction time of the defender .vs. the time it took the attacker to close the distance. It was 'how close is to close' to protect oneself.
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Still wrong, my dudenal. Please re-read post #23 above. Apparently, you're relying on goofy internet sources where, of course, everything is known except what's been validated. :rolleyes:

The edged weapon/21-foot rule is fully examined in Urey Patrick's well-written book below. This, of course, assumes reading comprehension on your part. ;)

https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Others-Issues-Facts-Fallacies/dp/1594608547
 
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Deaf Smith

New member
No I rely on Massad Ayoob (whom I've taken courses from) as well as Tom Givens, SouthNarc, Farnam, and others. The drill had nothing to do with 'fear' but a measure of one's reaction time. Unfortunately it failed to take into account not all people are 'average', i.e. 50 percentile.

The links were for your enlightenment and not mine.

Deaf
 
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