squaring dies

[zeke]

hounddawg-So now you know better than Sierra?

As a demonstration. With the ram lowered, screw the die down past where it fully sizes the case without locking it down. Rock it back and forth and observe the play the coarse threads allow. Now let the die sit, again without locking it down. Raise the ram with a shell holder inserted till it makes contact with bottom of the die and pushes it slightly upward. Notice how the die straightens as pressure is slightly increased between the bottom of the die, and the top of the shell holder. If you lock the die while the pressure is present, you have now squared up the die. Again, just a demonstration, not how you set the die for the amount of sizing you want on the case. There are several differing ways to put pressure on the die to take up the slack of the threads.

Didn't figure this out, but first read about it in Handloader, decade or 2 ago?

Fortunately a high post count or tricky little by-line quotes does not an exspurt (PA redneck spelling) make.

 

[BumbleBug]

FWIW...the MEC Marksman press uses a floating shell holder to improve alignment. It's linkage does not allow a "cam-over" which took me some time to get use to.

 

[F. Guffey]

ZEKE, there was a big attempt to reinvent reloading, I never thought it would go as far as "be kind to your press". I wasted some time thinking there were a few reloaders that had shop skills, I did not assume they did not have a clue.

I said I have made tools for checking alignment of equipment, If what I attempted work I should be able to remove the alignment tool after applying pressure I should be able to assemble the equipment and then insert the alignment tool or I would be able to remove the alignment tool after applying pressure. Long before that I said the RCBS press is not a cam over press, I said it is a lock up press meaning it goes into a 'big time bind' when the ram is raised.

And what do I get back? reloaders claiming they are nicer to their press than I. And then there are the 'becauses'; because I use 'O' rings. And then there are those answers that come from reoaders that have never been under a press.

Reminds me of the train trip I thought I wanted to take; ever thing went OK until I found out what time the train arrived in New Mexico, Seems to me the train arrived in New Mexico before it left Texas. they asked me if I wanted a ticket, I answered no and then asked what it would cost me to watch the train take off.

 

[F. Guffey]

I said it is a lock up press meaning it goes into a 'big time bind' when the ram is raised.

I understand reloaders do not know what a 'big time bind' is because they have never been under a press.

F. Guffey

 

[hounddawg]

hounddawg-So now you know better than Sierra?

in this matter obviously anyone with two eyes and a bit of common sense does. A set of feeler gages is optional for the doubters

As a demonstration. With the ram lowered, screw the die down past where it fully sizes the case without locking it down. Rock it back and forth and observe the play the coarse threads allow.

which proves what? Is there more play when that die is screwed into a floating die holder on the Forster? As I keep pointing to there has to be play or float for a FL sizing die to work without damaging the case. Try rocking that die once the locknut is tightened down, you can't unless the press is a Forster and the die is sitting in a floating die holder

So #1 how do you adjust the die square to the case when everything that holds the case and the dies has .015" or more play in every direction

#2 how can that case enter the sizing die unless the walls of the case are perfectly aligned with the walls of the die without bending or gouging the case wall ?

#3 the author claims purchasing a Forster co ax will solve all problems with alignment , yet with that design not only the case has float in the shellholder but the die also sits in a floating die holder that slides in and out which would require several more thousandths freeplay

common sense isn't very common it seems

edit @ Bumblebug - all presses use floating shellholders to allow the cases to self align with the walls of the die as the enter. That has been my point since my first post

 

[GWS]

I'm not a machinist....just a building contractor.....I know nothing about how to machine anything to the amazing tolerances we all get to experience. So I have only respect for Guffy, Houndawg, and the rest, who can make sense of such. I've been reloading for nearly half a century, and I'm still learning.

The following are just observations gained from the past 48 years.

RCBS die instructions have always called for reloaders using their non-carbide dies to screw the die in to touch the shell holder with the ram raised fully in the press....then screw in another 1/8 to 1/4 turn for what they called "cam-over".

That insinuates that the ram goes to a "Top"...over it...then back down a tad. Guffy called it a "bump". Then he suggested a measurement....I assume being the distance it comes back down......if there is no back down....or bump....then it just got tighter....Guffy called it a bind....and I agree that it could bind things if you screw it down 1/2 turn or more.

So you might assume RCBS may have used the wrong term, "cam-over", when they what they really want is zero play from the course die threads and the linkage ...... why? So you can get a repeatable sizing....or in other words a repeatable distance from the case head to the shoulder ogee.

As Hounddawg suggests this is a vertical tolerance....and I agree than the ram ought to provide that without any "play" and/or "binding" that may throw things off horizontally.

As I learned from "Handloader" back in the '70's. You don't want to force a case into a die...misaligned. Back then they said, "be sure to loosen your shell holder snap-in spring so that there is movement available for alignment." I complied with that and case run-out improved. Lately I noticed some have replaced the snap-in spring with an "O" ring.....tried that....and it works, in spite of being an annoyment getting the shell holder in and out......I bagged that (set in my ways?) and went back to my loosey snap-in spring.

As for squaring dies with the shell holder......that's a no-brainer. Raise the ram so that it hits the die and raises it "square" against the die nut....then tighten the die nut set screw. The Lee "O" ring adds a slight horizontal alignment I doubt is needed as long as the shell holder is loosey. What it also adds is a little height loosey which can play hell with your finished vertical case measurements. Just my opinion

 

[hounddawg]

As I learned from "Handloader" back in the '70's. You don't want to force a case into a die...misaligned. Back then they said, "be sure to loosen your shell holder snap-in spring so that there is movement available for alignment.

and the same principles apply today, no movement = damaged cases

The Lee "O" ring adds a slight horizontal alignment I doubt is needed as long as the shell holder is loosey.

I think that statement pretty much sums it up and the Forster adds a little extra loosey by letting the die float as well

 

[GWS]

But what you don't want is vertical movement that is not always repeatable. the "o" ring on a Lee die supplies a little of that also.

Guffy in the past has talked about brass that wont size. I raised my eyebrows over that. Then I experienced that too. Old brass like some of the 1967 LC brass I still have......it's hard stuff and very springy. You can size it and you think it's where you want it and you measure it and find you have to size it again......best anneal it, then size it again.

I bought some recent MG LC brass a couple of years ago from Wideners. It was a lot newer yet it was over size so much that I had to size it at least twice sometimes more. Not only was it hard to size, it was hard to straighten. I found that resizing then rotating then resizing was the only way to get it there. The next reloading of it will require annealing first....should have done that after tumbling the first time. There is a thread here back a ways on that experience. I got some good knowledge from Uncle Nick and Bart B. in that thread.https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543610 If you're curious.

 

[hounddawg]

anyone with a Forster coax and a set of feeler gages that can tell us how much upward and horizontal play in the die holder? I never thought about it until now but the O ring on the Lee dies seem to be providing the same function by allowing the die a bit of float

 

[zeke]

"Mount your sizer (mine was an RCBS small based sizer) by tightening the die nut only after your die is height adjusted and the shell holder cammed over tight against the die."

GWS-Without getting into the cam over discussion, this "squares" your die to the shell holder. Can take this a step further by using the brass to square the hole in the die, instead of the case holder. While some may consider that excessive, have seen sizing dies where the sizing portion was not concentric with the die body or perfectly square to the die base.

hounddawg-Sorry, really can't explain it any simpler than what was done previously, and tired of repeating it over and over. Perhaps if you review the whole series of posts and can get to the point of distinguishing aligning from squaring, aka one plane 90 degrees to another. It might also help to realize a brass case can indeed be forced into a die that is not quite square, if you can recognize what a small degree it does it to.

 

[hounddawg]

I bought some recent MG LC brass a couple of years ago from Wideners. It was a lot newer yet it was over size so much that I had to size it at least twice sometimes more. Not only was it hard to size, it was hard to straighten. I found that resizing then rotating then resizing was the only way to get it there. The next reloading of it will require annealing first....should have done that after tumbling the first time. There is a thread here back a ways on that experience. I got some good knowledge from Uncle Nick and Bart B. in that thread.https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=543610 If you're curious.

interesting thread and why I quite using expander balls on my dies. At the point the expander ball is being pulled back through the neck there is no support at all on the external part of the neck or the case walls. If the casse is even slightly cockeyed at that point in the sizing operation it would cause runout.

Late I might take some old cases do some experiments using a expander ball and some old cases where I make the rims uneven on purpose just to see what happens

hounddawg-Sorry, really can't explain it any simpler than what was done previously, and tired of repeating it over and over. Perhaps if you review the whole series of posts and can get to the point of distinguishing aligning from squaring, aka one plane 90 degrees to another. It might also help to realize a brass case can indeed be forced into a die that is not quite square, if you can recognize what a small degree it does it to.

take a caseholder with a case sitting in the press, take the neck and wiggle it, if you own a Forster put a die in the die holder wiggle it, take a FL sizing die, lube a case and insert it as far as you can using fingers. Bet you can't wiggle it. Oh and have a pair of pliers handy to pull it back out

just becasue a belief is commonly held does not mean it is correct, to quote FGuffy get off the computer go over to your press and see for yourself

 

[zeke]

https://www.facebook.com/USAMU1956/posts/10153707187509734:0

This method allows the sizing die to square itself each time, maybe what cw308 was referring to?

 

[zeke]

http://panhandleprecision.com/full-length-sizing-reliable-precision/

"Once I’ve adjusted the sizing die for proper setback, I square it to the shellholder to reduce or eliminate runout in the sized case."

 

[zeke]

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm

Squaring Dies

One facet of die adjustment that is seldom mentioned is “squaring “ the die The industry standard for reloading dies is a 7/8 x14 thread. Virtually all U.S. reloading equipment manufacturers thread dies and presses for this pitch. This is coarse enough to allow for fairly rapid die installation and removal in reloading presses, but is still fine enough to maintain a good degree of precision and alignment in assembly. Unfortunately, in many instances, there will still be some misalignment between the ram/shell holder and the die body.


Carbide dies, such as this Titanium Carbide set from Redding, eliminate the requirement for lubricating straight-walled cases prior to sizing.

To square your dies, start by following the adjustment procedures outlined above, up to the point of locking the die. Rather than merely snugging the lock ring down against the top of the press and locking it, the dies are squared by lowering the ram slightly, and placing a flat machined washer between the die body and the shell holder. Raise the ram slowly, until the washer is putting light to moderate pressure on the bottom of the die. This will remove the play from the threads, while the flat washer helps to hold the die body square against the shell holder. Maintaining pressure on the die body, now lower the lock ring, and lock the die firmly in place.

This procedure applies to both sizing and seating dies, but should not be used with either carbide sizing dies or benchrest/competition seating dies. You will find that dies that have been squared in this manner will be somewhat difficult to remove from the press. If the lock ring must be loosened to remove the dies, simply repeat the process the next time you set up to reload. The time this procedure takes to perform is minimal, and we feel the results are well worth the effort.

Squaring Dies

One facet of die adjustment that is seldom mentioned is “squaring “ the die The industry standard for reloading dies is a 7/8 x14 thread. Virtually all U.S. reloading equipment manufacturers thread dies and presses for this pitch. This is coarse enough to allow for fairly rapid die installation and removal in reloading presses, but is still fine enough to maintain a good degree of precision and alignment in assembly. Unfortunately, in many instances, there will still be some misalignment between the ram/shell holder and the die body.


Carbide dies, such as this Titanium Carbide set from Redding, eliminate the requirement for lubricating straight-walled cases prior to sizing.

To square your dies, start by following the adjustment procedures outlined above, up to the point of locking the die. Rather than merely snugging the lock ring down against the top of the press and locking it, the dies are squared by lowering the ram slightly, and placing a flat machined washer between the die body and the shell holder. Raise the ram slowly, until the washer is putting light to moderate pressure on the bottom of the die. This will remove the play from the threads, while the flat washer helps to hold the die body square against the shell holder. Maintaining pressure on the die body, now lower the lock ring, and lock the die firmly in place.

This procedure applies to both sizing and seating dies, but should not be used with either carbide sizing dies or benchrest/competition seating dies. You will find that dies that have been squared in this manner will be somewhat difficult to remove from the press. If the lock ring must be loosened to remove the dies, simply repeat the process the next time you set up to reload. The time this procedure takes to perform is minimal, and we feel the results are well worth the effort.

 

[zeke]

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/145-dealing-with-headspace


"Using them is very easy. Start with the +.010" shellholder. Install on the press's ram and raise to the top position. Screw down the sizing die to the point that it's making firm contact with the shellholder. When that happens, the die is now being "squared" or aligned with the shellholder."

 

[hounddawg]

a lot of posts zeke yet you still have not grasped the simple fact that a die and a case in a shellholder that has float self aligns. When a case is being sized the wall of the case is being squeezed from all sides equally. The case has no choice but to be aligned and squared.

Still have not left the computer to put a case into a FL die and see if you can force it in at a tilt I see

 

[zeke]

Must be burdensome to know more than all these people/companies? Lets see, now you know more than sierra, redding, USAMU and any number of precision re-loaders.

Squaring dies is a factual principle, lots of knowledgeable people do it, and have been doing it for decades.

The whole point of the subject was to help others with something that costs nothing. It may or may not help them.

I do not have a foerster press, and can not speak definitively about how they work, or make stuff up about how they work. There appears to be a slight canting slop (in addition to the lateral play), which may allow the die to square up.

 

[hounddawg]

I do not have a foerster press, and can not speak definitively about how they work, or make stuff up about how they work. There appears to be a slight canting slop (in addition to the lateral play), which may allow the die to square up

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/forster_coaxpress.pdf

setup and assembly step 3, last sentence

The die must be allowed to float for Coax alignment

 

[zeke]

As a matter of interest, starting looking for the earlier documentation for the practice of "squaring dies" . So far the earliest found was in Speer #9 in a section called "MODERN BENCHREST RELOADING TECHNIQUES by Neal Knox. Attached is a link to his biography
http://www.wmsa.net/legacy-wmsa/people/neal_knox/nk051801death_of_neal_knox.htm

Speer #9 was published in 1974, and you may ask why i have this manual this old. Anyway, well before the internet, and well before most even thought of having a computer. On page 100 it goes into detail on several methods of squaring a die, including using the shell holder, a flat washer and even a fired case during the process of setting up the die. All this 45 years ago.

As Mr Guffey likes to point out, well before some think they are reinventing anything. In the old days some learned by reading the manuals and trying to learn.

 

[cw308]

There is slop between the threads in the die and press , each of us have there own way of squaring . I use a O Ring between press and lockring . Another example is bolt face to chamber , barrel screwed into receiver bolt face would be your shellholder. Blueprinting will get close to exact as possible , even though .001 - 2 is a good idea to center the case with alittle wiggle. Just another thing to think of ." Who let the dogs out "