Speed and Precision (By Rob Pincus)

Erik

New member
Rob,
Absolutely.

I see one's knowledge, skills, abilites, fitness level, alertness, etc as effecting each aspect of OODA.

I think of training as being reduced to two parts: mental and physical. Ideally, each is stressed equally. I see OOD as belonging to mental. Without a good mental game, someone might not cycle off of the first O prior to a threat appearing. I see A as belonging to physical. Without a good physical game A might not be succesful despite the rest.

Example 1: A technically proficient shooter/fighter whose involved in dynamic force on force training involving a variety of unknown role players- he fails in solving OOD adequately and as a result cannot rely on his tried and proven range skills to see him successfully through. End result? BG 1, GG 0.

Example 2: A street savy poor shooter/fighter whose involved in dynamic force on force training involving a variety of unknown role players- he excells at solving OOD but cannot rely on his poor skills to see him successfully through. End result? BG 1, GG 0.

Example 3: Both combine to wint he day. BG 0, GG 1.

Over simplified for sake of argument, obviously. (For the benefit of an open forum with readers who may or may not be familiar with such things.) There are a variaety of factors which come into play.

For the record: In my experience as a trainer most firearms enthusiasts fall into example 1. (When run through training.) They KNOW that they're in yellow or orange, that their skills are honed, adn that their plan will work... right up until it fails. Granted, often because the scenario is designed to fail it, but fail none the less it does. Why? They're too "gun centric," more often than not.
 

Finger

New member
I found this very intersting. I train military and government agents on a daily basis. I found out that if I stress " slow is smooth, smooth is fast" long enough, that when we switch to force on force excersises it all comes together.

If I allowed them to be fast and sloopy during drills, they are a "football bat" during the application of stress, but if I make them train smooth and precise they tend to speed up because of the "chemical cocktail" kicking in, and they retain good form and accuracy.

Just my observations,

S/F
Finger
 

Hard Ball

New member
" With the right awareness, genetic gifts, tehcniques and training "someone" could get their gun out an stop a threat with a knife who was only 5 feet away when the atack initiated"

I find this very hard to believe. The defender has @ 0.4 seconds to react, draw and fire a shot. The average reaction time is 0.2 secods leaving o.2 seconds to draw and fire. "Someone has amazing abilities indeed.
 

Finger

New member
You are right Hard Ball. If you are not paying attention to your environment AND HANDS, you will probably not even see anything developing and your lightning fast draw will be a moot point. The trick is to be excited, because you expected it to happen, not be surprised, because it did happen.

S/F

Finger
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Hard ball,

That was the point of the analogy.... these are "possible" extremes. I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards.

Erik,

I agree with your observations.

Finger,

"slow is smooth, smooth can become fast" is a great way to get the fundamentals down, but I find that you have to push that envelop to failure to really see what your students are capable of (and for them to learn their limits) otherwise, you end up training the gifted ones to a lower standard.
 

Finger

New member
True Rob,

But, many trainers push too soon I think. Once the fundelmentals are mastered, then should the games begin. Man on man steel and realistic simunitions/airsoft force on force senairios are some of my favorite along with Pact timer drills.

S/F
Finger
 

Rob Pincus

New member
I'm probably one of them ;).

We take novices into the 360 degree live fire/reactive target/ carzy lighting ranges after 1 magazine.

I teach my instructor students with this as the premise:

What would you teach a loved one if you only had 30 seconds to prepare them to use a loaded gun and then the bad guy was bursting through the door??
(save all the "hide/runaway" fantasies... it's my hypothetical situation, so the point is obvisouly shootin skills)

The Combat Focus Shooting answer is Extend-Touch-Press... in, and parallell with, the line of sight. Consistent string of fire until the threat stops.

CFS teaching mechanical target shooting (sight alignment, refined stance, etc.,etc.) as the advanced skill. We teach survival/defensive shooting skills for typical situations first. I find this is a much better way to produce an end product that is "as efficient as possible." I've had to wasted far too much valuable training time having to undue damage done in the way of Erik's #1 example: shooters trained to depend on mechanical skills and things like specific body/foot positions that have a hard time speeding up in realistic training environments.
 

wuluf

New member
And..

i know it works 'cause i saw it on Personal Defense TV! Rob, that was awesome, and you turned novices in to semi-proficient shooters in next to no time, way faster than i would have thought possible!
 

Finger

New member
OK We are not all that different I have student pivoting and moving/fighting to cover on day one also. I don't teach any specific shooting stance. I see no need for it. they shouldn't be in it long anyway. Their butt should be moving. Presenting the students with multiple threats drives this all home.

The only students I have to teach differently are my PSD guys. They are high paid bullet stops to a point. Just the nature of the job.

Good thread,

S/F
Finger
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Finger,

I find that most people who are really thinking about the observed realities and working the problems come to very similar conclusions, regardless or backgrounds and terminolgy. Have you had a chance to check out the new experimental Podcast?


Thanks for the feedback, Wuluf. Those shows were fun and exposed a lot of people to what we are doing at Valhalla and with the Combat Focus Program.
 

Finger

New member
No Rob, I haven't. Oh and hte link didn't work for me.

I have heard nothing but good about your facility. I am ending my career now pretty much. Just had major back surgery. Too many years of falling out of airplanes, carrying a ruck and getting beat up around the world. Forty-two years to be exact since I started carrying a gun.

Hope you guys don't mind me jumping in there every now and then and giving my opinion.

S/F
Finger
 

Hard Ball

New member
Rob

You say " I find it very hard to believe that our industry has preached the 21 foot "rule" for so long in the face of observable data to the contrary an that it is still refenced as a source for training standards:"

The Teueller drill is the result of large numbers of tests. What data do you have that invalidates it?
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Hard ball,

Understand that the point of TD is to prove a "possibility" .. it s too often preached as an "absolute". There is a huge behavioral difference between the two aproaches. No one could refute that someone could close the distance, the point is that it is not an absolute that no one can respond to someone successfully from that distance. Countless knife attacks from that range and closer are thwarted every year.
Hopefully, my point is no so obvious as to have revealed a misunderstanding. If not, let me know.

RJP
 

mordis

New member
Rob i am trying to view your pod cast, on the new link you provided and i still cant get it to work. I am interested in watching it. When it does load, i get some error saying some plug in is not right.
 

Rob Pincus

New member
Mordis, I'm not sure why that would still be happening. I appreciate you trying to get it to work.

It is now up on iTunes, which is a universal platform option as well.


This link should take you to the hompage of the Podast, there is a "listen" button that should work for you if you don't have iTunes:
http://www.switchpod.com/p13003.html


-RJP
 
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